Oversight Board/2008/Log-2008-06-30

#sugar-meeting :[freenode-info]

 *   9:00 UTC+2. it's 7:00 UTC now (well, 10 past...), so the meeting should be now
 *   ta-da
 *  ciao da milano
 *   hello walter_
 *  ciao
 *  We are just gathering now...
 *   _bernie has ducked off to get lunch, he'll be back soon
 * Loaded log from Mon Jun 30 03:13:53 2008
 * Now talking on #sugar-meeting
 * Topic for #sugar-meeting is: The meeting channel for the sugar developers (sugarlabs.org) | see also #sugar | meeting time: thursdays 17.00 UTC
 * Topic for #sugar-meeting set by erikos at Wed Jun 4 07:36:15 2008
 *  sorry--we were trying to set up an ad-hoc network and lost the connection
 *  I'll be taking notes and communicating the chat to everyone in the room
 *   it's always the wireless... :)
 *  In Milano, we have Marco, Tomeu, Karen from SFC, Luca, Carlo, and Paul
 *  A few more will join us in an hour or two.
 *  We'll get started with a discussion of the SFC
 * <_bernie> arjs_ I told my friends here about you and you seem to be quite popular. dev, originally from india, says he talked with you a couple of times.
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 * <_bernie> mk8 is in Firenze. He's CTO of OLPC Italia
 * <_bernie> very good friend of mine
 *  _bernie, yes Dev Mohanty perhaps ? We (OLPC India) would be following up with him when he later visits India to take advice on network related issues...
 * <_bernie> arjs_: here they have some experience on how to connect schoolsd
 * <_bernie> arjs_: are you planning a pilot in some rural area?
 *  _bernie,its mostly going to be urban...the last one was rural
 * <_bernie> arjs_: I'm helping with the infrastructure here... because what we're doing now with vlans etc is not going to scale much bigger than this
 * <_bernie> BTW, since the channel is mostly silent now, I might use the opportunity to say what's going on here
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 * <_bernie> we have two schools in the hills around kathmandu. they're conveniently close to us, but "a world apart" from the city.
 * <_bernie> the teachers are happy... the children maybe are (but I got no opportunity to interview them)
 *  I just gave a brief overview of Sugar and talked about the goal of a stable home for the project
 *  both for developers and the user community
 * _bernie switches to listening mode
 *  Karen is describing the SFC
 *  The SFC is a home for projects--an umbrella organization
 *  the projects become part of the conservancy
 *  they get tax-free status in the US
 * <walter__> but we can set up any governance structure we want
 *   it sounds like a very good deal - are there an downsides for us?
 * <walter__> the agreement is an understanding (explicitly) that the SFC will not interfere in project governance or management
 *   s/an/any
 * <walter__> administrative management stays in the conservancy
 * <walter__> I'll ask as soon as Karen is done.
 * <walter__> there is always a unilateral mechanism to spin out from the SFC
 * <walter__> We would be committed to a non-profit structure for any assets
 * <walter__> an asset would be funds we would raise, any copyrights (if we chose to)
 * <walter__> we may assign trademarks to the SFC
 * <walter__> later today we'll have a presentation of some suggestions to the "idenity"
 * <walter__> for Sugar Labs (as oppose to Sugar) (or in addition to Sugar)
 * <walter__> downsides:
 * <walter__> (1) commitment to a non-profit structure, even when we leave the conservancy
 * <walter__> (2) no projects have ever spun out on their own, so there may be some unknown obstacles
 * <walter__> (3) administrative and technical oversight (we need it from somewhere)
 * <walter__> The termination clause is be default on 30 days
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 *   NFP or not is the only question we have to answre. if sugar labs is going to be a NFP, then i can't think of any reasons not to be part of the SFC (i guess it makes it harder to change our minds later? dunno. this is all quite US centric and too lawyer-ish for me :)
 * <walter__> the conservancy has some concern that sugar might get too big for the SFC
 * <walter__> (4) entering into contracts is on behalf of the conservancy
 * <walter__> Tax-wise, it makes it easier for companies to write-off their expenses, such as developer time in this model
 * <_bernie> walter__: how big is too big? and for what practical reason can't the SFC handle a big project?
 * <walter__> At some point, since any funds pass through their administration, they may need some help
 * <walter__> no fixed definition of too big
 * <walter__> if we become a big project...
 * <walter__> we become a big target
 * <BryanWB> ... which I hope we will
 * <walter__> Me too. So we may eventually spin out
 * <walter__> or there could be big organizations surrounding Sugar Labs
 * <walter__> each project designated one or two people to be the central point for expenditures
 * <walter__> the service of reimbursement is handled by SFC
 * <BryanWB> I don't know how you guys feel about this but I think the big organizations supporting Sugar labs should be companies like Hasbro and Lego, much like the private sector supports linux. I don't see IBM helping Sugar labs, but I could be wrong
 * <_bernie> walter__: big target for suing or something like that?
 * <_bernie> walter__: Can't we spin off only when (and if) we grow too large?
 * <walter__> We can spin off if and when we want to or need to...
 * <walter__> We need some sort of structure...
 *   the only restriction being the spin off has to be NFP too, right?
 * <walter__> yes
 *   is that what we're going to discuss later? or do we want to talk about that now?
 *   (to NFP or not?)
 * <walter__> But again, I think that there is and should be room for FP entities to grow up around Sugar Labs, offering support, extra services, such as ports, etc.
 * <walter__> What do people think about that model?
 *   sure. like Wine and codeweavers
 * <walter__> Wine is in the SFC!!
 *   (wine is a SFC project)
 *   yeah :0
 *   s/:0/:)
 * <walter__> the question being asked is about the international implications?
 * <BryanWB> Walter: like the ngo surrounded by fp offering services and support, esp. local FP's
 *   BryanWB: fp?
 * <BryanWB> shenki: for profit companies
 *   BryanWB: ah, of course. thanks.
 * <walter__> The SFC has lots on international affiliates.
 * <walter__> the bias is towards US donations, but not how the money is spent
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 * <walter__> we shouldn't have trouble working outside of the US, but if we need to, we can set up other organizations elsewhere.
 * <walter__> the SFC could work with other organizations...
 *   hello all
 * <walter__> the SFC could help with administrative help to non-US programs without having to be involved in the funding--the money can stay local
 * <walter__> any other questions about SFC?
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 * <walter__> we will start talking about governance
 * <walter__> the SFC thinks that conceptually, the governance document is in good shape--soem wordsmithing needed
 * <_bernie> for the record, I 100% agree with Sugar Labs becoming part of the SFC, and thank them for the support.
 * <walter__> maybe each of you on line could chime in as a straw poll.
 * <walter__> we will need a final step of the "key" representatives to agree
 * <walter__> it would be great if OLPC would assign someone to fill in as an acting member of the oversight board
 *   cjb, m_stone^ (for when you wake up)
 * <walter__> Karen will review the governance documents
 * <_bernie> walter__: I'm afraid we'll have to wait until 9AM EDT before we can get any feedback from Boston
 * <_bernie> walter__: btw, are the OLPC-AU guys participating in person?
 * <walter__> We'll wait until sunrise in Boston
 * <_bernie> s/AU/AT/
 * <walter__> Alas, no one from OLPC-AT is here yet
 * <_bernie> are they expected to come?
 * <walter__> We are talking about how the SFC interacts with the governance model
 * <walter__> essentially, they want to approve the initial model to make sure it is a sound model that has its own mechanism for change
 * <walter__> Any other issues about governance or SFC for the moment?
 * <_bernie> can we publish the final draft in the wiki?
 * <walter__> We'll get feedback from the SFC and use the Wiki for the final version
 *   i've only just read the governance pages. did someone involved with the gnome governance help out?
 *   i wonder if they would have useful feedback for us
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 * <walter__> We leaned heavily on Gnome and I've spoken to lots of Gnome board members (present and past)
 *   thanks walter
 * <walter__> The real difference in my mind is an explicit outreach to users as members--that is different than Gnome
 * <walter__> Personally, I think in our case, getting direct involvement from teachers and learners is important
 *   for sure - there's a nice group of teachers here that would be keen to be involved, but until the ieap list sprung up, didn't know where to voice their thoughts
 *   (here being australia)
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 * <BryanWB> how does moodle's governance work? I am really impressed by the mix of educators and techies in their community.
 * <walter__> Good idea Bryan. I don
 * <walter__> 't know
 * <walter__> I'm going off line for 5 minutes.
 * <walter__> Marco will be coming on line
 * <walter__> I am back
 * <walter__> We are talking now about what Sugar Labs should do and not do
 * <walter__> Can someone wake up Martin? We have lots of questions for him :)
 * <walter__> The consensus in the room is that Sugar Labs is the hub
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 *   walter: we have talked about governance but now about what we are trying to do
 *   marcopg: you're present with walter and the others?
 *   shenki: yeah
 *   posting notes
 *   thanks ;)
 *   s/;)/:)
 *   walter: what we do about support
 * <BryanWB> marco: walter said he will be offline for 5 minutes about 2 minutes ago
 *   i think marcopg is relaying what wlater is saying :)
 *   (i was confused for a sec too)
 *   yeah :)
 * <BryanWB> sorry
 *   sorry :)
 *   w: in Peru not having the right people available was a waste of time
 * <BryanWB> support is hard but not impossible.
 *   w: it's not much that I want to get moneys from Peru but that I want Peru to prepare and to have the right people available
 * <BryanWB> IMHO, it won't take much to support Sugar once you can easily remove and add activities to free up space.
 * <BryanWB> However, while it is very easy to flash the XO w/ a new version of Sugar, we need it to also be easy to flash a new version of Sugar on heterogeneous hardware
 *   BryanWB: that second paragraph mirrors what i was just writing. i agree.
 *   (perhaps lets let walter do his bit, then comment)
 *   BryanWB: you mean normal laptops? does a livecd/qemu does what you need there?
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: yes normal laptops. but not for emulation. In the future when you deploy Sugar on 150 eee's or classmates, need a dirt simple way to reflash the OS.
 *   livecd/qemu is great for a temporary situation - to demo, develop, perhaps a short trial - but it's not the best way to do things long term
 *   ok, how do you see it better done in the long term for normal laptops?
 *   and what's the use case for this? teachers?
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: should only be two-three steps. Insert USB key, Hit escape to boot from UsB, type one line command. I was able to teach several Nepali teachers how to do this
 *   or maybe it is? perhaps it's a good way to remove the burden of supporting different distros, oses
 *   the use case i'm looking at is a few class sets of laptops that students will be using
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: yes teachers and enterprising students. students won't mess around w/ reflashing for the first few months they get the XO. most will be too afraid to break it.
 *   (walter coming back, /me very bad to rely and listen here, can't multitask easily :P)
 *   my use case will be something i'm looking at doing over the next month, with a school here
 *   shenki: oh seen your post about that, would be really cool
 * <walter__> but the engineering and support should be in the community, both volunteers and groups that want to offer services for profit
 * <BryanWB> walter: sounds good to me. Conceptual integrity and quality control of Sugar as a product needs to be maintained by Sugar Labs
 *   where/how does olpc, redhat, fit into that?
 * <BryanWB> bryanwb: It would be nice for sugar Labs to support 2 releases of sugar per year w/ bug fixes and security patches.
 * <walter__> Sugar Labs should manage the release process and the review process
 *   that's getting very specific, do we want to keep the discussion higher level for now?
 * <walter__> for now, it makes sense to keep in sync with the OLPC release schedule too
 * <walter__> I see OLPC (and perhaps Intel and ASUS) as downstream
 * <BryanWB> IMHO, Sugar Labs shouldn't try to constrain the educational approaches that schools use Sugar for. If schools want to use Sugar for rote learning, Sugar Labs shouldn't intentionally restrict or impede them.
 * <walter__> They should be pushing patches up to Sugar
 * <walter__> Arguing to make their needs and POV realized by the community
 * <BryanWB> Sugar can show teachers that constructionism is the way to go but not force it on them.
 *   walter__: do you have any news to share with us re: intel and/or asus?
 * <walter__> But as Dennis said in another context last night, we should strive to make our code work for everyone, not just OLPC...
 * <walter__> I don't know any details re ASUS or Intel right now--except that Intel is working with Aaron on the Classmate
 * <walter__> But that work should be done in a way that helps with other ports as well.
 * <walter__> I think Intel would agree and I am sure Aaron would agree
 *   sure
 * <walter__> should we set up as page in the wiki to let people advertise engineering and support services?
 * <BryanWB> walter: +1
 * <walter__> it is not an issue vis-a-vis the SFC or Sugar Labs's status as a non-profit
 * <BryanWB> could be neat to have corporate partners that contribute $, but all contributions would be the same small amount perhaps $1000-$2000, to not crowd out local for-profit groups. Could be good regular source of funding.
 * <walter__> We will touch in this theme later, but I generally agree...
 * <walter__> We are talking right now about how to reach out beyond developer to the learning community
 * <BryanWB> sorry
 * <walter__> Nor problem--an important topic.Sugar Labs should have a strong role in outreach
 * <walter__> to educators.
 * <BryanWB> walter_: the best way to do that is to make it dead simple to create collaborative, learning activities for English, math, and science. How to do that, I am not sure :) . Teachers like Moodle because it is relatively easy to get started w/ it
 * <walter__> We need to provide resources to people like Paron in Thailand and Lea in Brasil
 *   forgive my ignorance; who are Paron and Lea?
 * <BryanWB> agreed, but also make it easy for the average teacher
 * <BryanWB> not just ones that have the good fortune of a lot of a freedom to innovate at their school and advanced training in constructionism
 * <_bernie> For them, authoring tools such as etoys and flash are probably the way to go.
 * <BryanWB> bernie: +1, Scratch even more so
 * <_bernie> oh, and I was forgetting Turtle Art
 * <_bernie> walter__: is there a pause in the meeting?
 * <BryanWB> it needs to be easy to share publish activities in a persistent matter from things like scratch, etoys, and turtle art. Teachers won't just want to publish in the mesh, they will want to group their activity w/ supplementary readings and related activities.
 * <_bernie> when there's time, I'd like to talk about the FOSS community here
 *   we are talking about teaching materials
 *   someone in the room brought up the issue of using a completely new platform
 *   which might cut out existing teaching materials
 *   _bernie: foss seems to fit in the current topics
 * <_bernie> marcopg: so, this friday I'll meet with a local group of FOSS enthusiasts at the university
 * <_bernie> marcopg: we'll do an informal talk on a topic of their choice. they're interested in the kernel mostly, so it will be about the kernel this time.
 * <_bernie> my long term goal is to get in touch with good engineers we could recruit for sugar
 * <_bernie> but it seems it will take at least 2-3 meetings before we can start with sugar
 * <_bernie> there might be opportunities to involve a few part-times volunteers or full time employees.
 * <_bernie> marcopg: would new sugar developers coordinated from ktm be a useful addition to the team?
 * <_bernie> GA
 *   (we are still finishing the teaching materials discussion, will bring this up next)
 * <_bernie> ok
 * <walter__> I was talking, not typing. Sorry
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: regarding teaching materials. We are really interested here in using an offline moodle client such as www.jolongo.org. Would integrate teaching materials w/ activities into courses. Online-only course materials doesn't really meet the needs of pilots in developing countries where the XS might be offline frequently
 * <BryanWB> while jolongo is open-source, it unfortunately relies on Adobe AIR
 * <_bernie> (which I was unable to install on Ubuntu 8.04, btw)\
 * <BryanWB> bernie: damn
 *   wikipedia vs traditional encyclopedies, walter saying that wikipedia is actually better and will unarguably so in 10 years
 *   because the model is better
 *   (this was related again to teaching materials and how to produce them)
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: I don't agree that the wikipedia model is applicable to creating good teaching materials.
 *   BryanWB: (I'm not sure walter was implying that, but will let him answer it)
 * <BryanWB> Marcopg: I think the open-source software model w/ maintainers and more quality control is more applicable:
 * <BryanWB> learning materials need quality control and wikis by definition have quality control by the crowd. This only works when the crowd are also the prime consumers of the content.
 *   I think it was more about open vs closed, then about control or not
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: sorry, :) this is a pet issue of mine
 *   it's definitely an interesting problem :)
 *   I tend to have issues with wikis too :P
 *   d.l.o is a mess for example
 *   w.l.o I mean
 *   for s.l.o we are trying to keep a bit more control on structure...
 *   but I'm not sure how well that will scale when more people are writing on it
 *   damn
 *   s/s.l.o/w.s.o
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: sourceforge is the right model for open-source activities and courses, not wikipedia. You can create your own activity or course and control who can change it. If someone doesn't like how you are managing, they fork your open-source activity/course and do it better.
 *   I tend to agree yeah
 *   especially for activities :)
 *   but yeah there is no real strong separation between activities and courses
 *   (or at least there shoudn't be)
 * <BryanWB> marcopg: we will have to have to work on this. courses are a narrative, good for guidance. Activities by themselves for discovery. You need both.
 * <walter__> Bryan, what aspect of the wikipedia model do you think is not a good fit?
 * <BryanWB> walter: that you can make changes at will to the working copy. This makes it very hard for someone who is depending a particular course or doing something according to a particular vision. Like a complex piece of software :) You wouldn't let somewhat change your stable released version on the fly would you?
 * <BryanWB> walter: like I told marco, sourceforge is a much better paradigm
 * <BryanWB> walter: on wikipedia, there is one article called "Physics" We shouldn't have one course called physics. We should have hundreds of different physics courses or activities that pursue different ways of teaching often the same thing.
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 *   So *when* is the meeting?
 * <walter__> You can protect pages in the wikipedia, so you can have an access control
 * <walter__> and you can fork pages...
 * <walter__> I guess I am thinking about wikipedia as a more general model of contribution and critique.
 * <BryanWB> walter: Agreed on general contribution and critique.  The changes to wikipedia you mention it basically a document-oriented sourceforge
 * <_bernie> walter__, BryanWB: I wonder if you have in mind the same thing when you talk about "teaching materials".
 * <_bernie> is it a text book?
 * <_bernie> exercices?
 * <_bernie> reference material (such as an encyclopedia or dictionary)?
 * <_bernie> lessions?
 * <_bernie> *lessons
 * <BryanWB> teaching materials are a narrative that includes text and related activities. All of what you mention. May or may not launch an interactive activity. Could simply be a lecture and then notes on leading a discussion w/ students.
 * <BryanWB> We want people to create complex courses that show other teachers how to use the XO for constructionist learning. Teacher training is good, but teachers still want some form of guidance and something to look back to besides their fading memory of one week of training.
 * <_bernie> so, clearly, the wiki model only applies to text books and reference material... not to interactive lessons and exercises, right?
 * <_bernie> these need to be constructed programmatically, or with visual editors such as etoys, right?
 * <BryanWB> bernie: imho, yes. Courses and teaching materials require intellectual integrity, just like a software program. courses and teaching materials need to be done w/ visual editors like etoys, scratch, and moodle.
 * <BryanWB> or flash or Sophie :)
 * <_bernie> I don't know what Sophie is, but I get the point.
 * <BryanWB> sorry guys, I have to go now. good talking to everyone
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 * <BryanWB> oh and everyone in the sugar Labs team is welcome to drop by Kathmandu any time. We really want close collaboration b/w developers, kids, and teachers. for selfish reasons, esp. nepali kids and teachers.
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 * <_bernie> marcopg: can you update us?
 *   walter is explaining to people about the situation in Brasil
 *   and why deals with OLPC didn't work out
 * marcopg should really drop by ktm :)
 *   (we are going a little out of topic here)
 * <walter__> not just a little off topic
 * <walter__> our host is telling us about helicopters
 * <walter__> and anti-terrorism
 * <_bernie> lol
 * <walter__> but maybe we can break for coffee
 * <_bernie> ok me too
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 * Topic for #sugar-meeting is: The meeting channel for the sugar developers (sugarlabs.org) | see also #sugar | meeting time: thursdays 17.00 UTC
 * Topic for #sugar-meeting set by erikos at Wed Jun 4 07:36:15 2008
 * sugar-meeting :[freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
 * <walter_> we are back from coffee
 *   hello. what's next on the agenda?
 * <walter_> we will talk a bit more about governance: Karen went over our documents and will post her comments to the wiki
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 * <walter_> she'll also post a draft of an agreement with the SFC
 * <arjs_> walter_, whenever it fits the topic, i look forward to knowing about Brasil
 * Now talking on #sugar-meeting
 * Topic for #sugar-meeting is: The meeting channel for the sugar developers (sugarlabs.org) | see also #sugar | meeting time: thursdays 17.00 UTC
 * Topic for #sugar-meeting set by erikos at Wed Jun 4 07:36:15 2008
 * <walter_> We are back again
 * <walter_> bernie. did you get both presentations?
 *   22:57 :< _bernie> marcopg_: we only got the ppt presentation. nothing else?
 * <walter_> should have been two ppt presentations
 * <walter_> we are suppose to talk about models of support and fundraising
 * <walter_> we missed the lunch portion of the agenda, but managed a couple of coffee breaks at least
 * <jg> morning....
 * <jg> walter_: is there someplace to find presentations?
 * <walter_> We sent them to bernie, we thought
 * <jg> heh...
 * <walter_> there aren't any formal presentations except the graphic design presentations
 * <walter_> I'll post a log of the chat that I have been online for. We only have one connection we have been sharing.
 * <jg> nothing like Italian internet service ;-).
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 * <walter_> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Image:Sugar-labs-meeting-milano.jpg
 * <walter_> so we just went in circles re support--our conclusion in the room is we need to support local support groups forming and becoming self sufficient
 * <walter_> and encourage both learning and technical communities of support to form
 * <walter_> how can we encourage more communication about what is happening other than technical things?
 * <walter_> What is happening in the deployments? Is it secret?
 * <jg> walter_: don't think so; but we're still sorting through how to do weekend... We have terrible overlap, between your digest, Stephen's roll up of Weekend, and me doing community news.  I found when working on community news today that I wasn't sure exactly what was public information or not.  I'm trying to get this fixed...  Also, you and I should figure out how to deal with sugar reporting, so we don't duplicate effort....
 * <walter_> what is "Stephen's roll up of Weekend"?
 * <walter_> and I see pretty minimal overlap between the Sugar Digest and what you and previously Kim has been sending.
 * <jg> walter_: Stephen Michaud is stuck with the albatross that goes out as weekend, now it is not your headache.
 * <jg> walter_: yes, I've been trying to minimize overlap.
 * <walter_> I am not concerned about what in circulated internally at OLPC, but since i left, there is exactly zero communication about anything except tech digests from OLPC
 * <jg> walter_: exactly my point; there are tidbits in weekend that aren't for public consumption, and I didn't realize until this week I should be pulling most of that stuff into community news.
 * <jg> As I realized that today, and went through weekend, I realized I was a bit unsure what was likely to need to remain confidential.
 * <jg> I'll fix it the next time around....
 * <walter_> From the outside, the tech stuff is already in the lists, the wiki, and the IRC, but nothing else is public, so in some sense, the least important thing is a tech digest
 * <jg> yes, I agree.
 *   yes - the summary is good if you're not reading the lists. but it's the stuff that isn't in the lists that people wnat to hear about
 * <jg> I said I'll get this fixed.....
 *   jg: the emails people used to send you on friadys, those were often interesting, as they spoke about things that had happened in the office and weren't necessarly on the lists
 * <walter_> that is the stuff Carla observes and what Cavallo is allegedly thinking about but never shares
 * <walter_> I don't think anyone really cares about what deals NN has cooking.
 * <walter_> it is how are the laptops being used for learning.
 * <jg> yup.
 * <walter_> can you push on that from the inside? I'll push on chuck from the outside
 * <jg> I don't think it needs pushing.... I had completely overlooked the obvious, until literally earlier this morning.  Sometimes I can be dense....
 *   walter_: I think the caption for http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Image:Sugar-labs-meeting-milano.jpg has you and Carlo Falciola flipped (you're listed as rightmost, but I don't think you are). Is my understanding correct?  I'm happy to fix it (very minor...).
 *   mtd: i noticed that too. "damn, walter's changed since i saw him last" :)
 *   shenki: heh
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 * cjb appears, hello.
 *   A question from reading scrollback, for whenever's a good time: I saw lots of arguments against Sugar on cellphones (which fits with everything I'd previously heard about the idea), but no arguments for it.  :)  Does that mean that everyone was against it, or are there some persuasive arguments for it too?
 * BryanWB (n=hitman@202.63.242.211) has left #sugar-meeting
 * <jg> walter_: OK, I just generated a "Learning news" for last week and sent it to community-news....
 * <jg> now to get Stephen to send me the original document; cutting and pasting from pdf isn't my idea of fun.
 *   jg: incase you can't do that, abiword is handy for opening up pdfs and ripping text out (much easier to manage than using evince)
 * <jg> it's not having line breaks left over from the PDF that is the headache from evince. Does abiword do better?
 *   nope, it looks like abiword sufferes from the same problem
 *   it converts page breaks to line breaks, and line breaks to spaces. luckly, spaces are still spaces
 *   ohhh. abiword 2.6 is much nicer
 *   you can grab that from intrepid if you're running ubuntu
 *   it even preserves bold and font sizes
 * shenki is off, night
 * <walter_> cjb: I missed the chat discussion about Sugar for Mobile
 * <walter_> in the room, it was a more enthusiastic reception
 * <walter_> if only because it means more people working on some of the pieces we need
 *   walter_: Ah, so a "growing the community" kind of reason.
 * <walter_> BTW, Karen finished putting some questions in-line in the governance pages of the wiki
 *   (Still, it seems that if we're pretty sure that a cellphone screen is an outright bad environment for learning, that should trump doing it for the side benefits.)
 * <walter_> the cell phone is not a good platform for learning--but maybe a way to bring another poit of view into a conversation, for example
 *   I think it might be worth being clear about whether the goal is "connected devices", or a higher standard.
 * <walter_> not sure what "higher standard" is referring to... a substitute for a laptop? or more breadth?
 *   Well, I guess I mean learning and constructionism.
 *   We could build a pretty and iconic version of Skype for cell phones, but I'm not sure what we're achieving. So, my question is, what are the minimum requirements for expressiveness and learning when we work on a port of Sugar?  If we're on a device like a cellphone that has bad prospects for text input and a bad screen for output ..
 * <walter_> I do think it is peripheral to the main learning experience, but it can make a connection between the learning experience on the laptop and other people/users in the community
 *   oh! I hadn't considered a cell phone that supplements the laptop, rather than replaces it.
 *   I guess I'm pretty confused about how that might work. But that's okay, I understand more about the idea now.
 * <walter_> I'm a bit confused too, but I think there are so many phones out there, it is worth spending a bit of time to think about.
 *   Makes sense.