Deployment Team/Meetings/Minutes/2009-09-02

Agenda (in english)

Topic: How deployments can provide better feedback and how we can process it?

• From whom do we expect feedback?
  • deployment gatekeepers
  • Teachers
  • Students
  • Volunteers by testing
• Mechanisms for on-line feedback
  • dev.sugarlabs.org
  • launchpad.net
  • getsatisfaction.com/sugarlabs
  • idea.sugarlabs.org -> idea.laptop.org
  • Mailing lists
  • IRC Channels
  • Skype
• Mechanisms for off-line feedback
  • Newsletter
  • Survey
  • Call center
• Mechanisms for process feedback
• Others

Agenda (en español)

Tópico: ¿Cómo desde las implementaciones se puede proveer una mejor retroalimentación y cómo procesarlas?

• ¿De quiénes esperamos la retroalimentación?
  • Encargados de la implementación
  • Docentes
  • Estudiantes
  • Voluntarios efectuando pruebas
• Mecanismos on-line de retroalimentación
  • dev.sugarlabs.org
  • launchpad.net
  • getsatisfaction.com/sugarlabs
  • idea.sugarlabs.org -> idea.laptop.org
  • listas de correo
  • Canales IRC
  • Skype
• Mecanismos off-line de retroalimentación
  • Boletín
  • Encuesta
  • Atención telefónica
• Mecanismos para procesar la retroalimentación
• Anuncios

Minutes

Feedback from IT/other Hitech organizations pushing for use of Sugar in schools and local communities

Log

(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:00:27] hi all
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:00:50] we have deployment team meeting
(04:49:54 PM) transbot1 left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(04:49:54 PM) walterbender: [10:01:18] hi
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU [i=62d94860@gateway/web/freenode/x-fvochgkpvuevdkfg] entered the room.
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(04:49:54 PM) BryanWB left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat").
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:04:34] good morning
(04:49:54 PM) mk8 left the room.
(04:49:54 PM) kristianpaul: [10:06:25] hi
(04:49:54 PM) mk8 [n=torello@ip-212-141.sn1.eutelia.it] entered the room.
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:07:11] good morning
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:07:22] let's start
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:07:32] #startmeeting
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:08:50] good morning!
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:12:49] do we have meeting commands available?
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:14:12] befana: no it does not look like meetingbot is here today:(
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:15:03] dfarning: :(
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:15:23] well, we have to do manual....
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:15:44] #TOPIC How deployments can provide better feedback and how we can process it?
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:16:02] the agenda is in http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Meetings/Minutes/2009-09-02
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:17:03] can we begin with a little presentation?? are there new people around?
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:17:36] this is my first deployment team meeting
(04:49:54 PM) JT4sugar: [10:18:24] this is my second deployment meeting
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:20:48] in terms of feed back, moodle is one of the most effective projects
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:21:26] it is interesting that they use moodle itself for the feedback....
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:21:28] first deployment meeting.. i am working with olpc, and i have contact with many teachers and people in charge of deployments, who I would like to put in direct contact with sugar labs
(04:49:54 PM) walterbender: [10:21:50] ClaudiaU: +1
(04:49:54 PM) walterbender: [10:22:00] maybe get them on the Sur list?
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:22:15] great idea!
(04:49:54 PM) dirakx: [10:22:21] dfarning: ceratainly i guess we have to put to life again moodle for deployments. SL .cl might need it.
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:22:56] I would like to compile a set of info I can handle to people... so they know how to continue
(04:49:54 PM) walterbender: [10:23:20] ClaudiaU: what sort of info?
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:23:23] ClaudiaU: what info would you like
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:24:03] what list are available for them to join, how can they give feedback to developers, how they can get help
(04:49:54 PM) icarito [n=icarito@190.41.195.116] entered the room.
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:25:37] ClaudiaU: which deployment are you working on?
(04:49:54 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:27:13] I work mainly with Latinoamerica (Paraguay, Colombia, Nicaragua, Peru...) , but I am traveling to Nigeria next week
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:27:13] good day from Lima
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:28:08] As walterbender said, best link is the sur mailing list.
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:28:38] does any know if http://getsatisfaction.com/sugarlabs is in spanish?
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:28:53] dfarning: think not
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:29:28] dfarning: i mean i know it doesnt
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:29:30] dfarning: last meeting caroline talk something about getsatisfaction
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:29:49] there was a discussion in the olpc-uruguay list
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:30:17] about "bureaucracy" for feedback - i think its probably more of a language barrier
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:30:47] dfarning: i think perhaps the move to launchpad is good
(04:49:54 PM) ***icarito [10:31:05] is checking for spanish launchpad
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:31:40] Ok, I'll work with Luke to setup the question and answer portion of launch pad for Sugar
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:31:42] dfarning: hmmm launchpad not i18n'd either
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:32:32] how about a plan old forum like http://ubuntuforums.org/ ?
(04:49:54 PM) dirakx: [10:33:02] the idea of a forum seems better.
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:33:26] the discussion on olpc-uruguay was more about developer feedback, bug reports, wishlist, rather than about support
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:33:26] less complicated is good!
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:33:29] we need to think in our tarjet: teachers? students?
(04:49:54 PM) JT4sugar: [10:33:46] A series of  Hour Long Skype meetings directly with deployments which can be recorded could be great way for Sugar Labs to intoduce ourselves and create a bond directly with teachers and students
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:34:33] we are starting to record a monthly podcast to go with our newsletter to schools
(04:49:54 PM) dirakx: [10:34:38] also we should explore tools like dimdim and the like in the future.
(04:49:54 PM) dfarning: [10:34:46] befana: you are right!  keep pulling us toward teachers and students:)
(04:49:54 PM) icarito: [10:34:50] audio is good
(04:49:54 PM) JT4sugar: [10:34:54] dfarning, We could ask them the questions you plan to set up on launchpad
(04:49:54 PM) befana: [10:38:51] one thing we need offline feedback too
(04:49:55 PM) dfarning: [10:39:05] JT4sugar: I am a little hesitant about lp in its current form.   There are too many links back to ubuntu.  Very easy for new person to get confused and find themselves in ubuntu when they though they were in sugar:(
(04:49:55 PM) dirakx: [10:39:22] one concern about teachers in uruguay is that they soetimes get frustrated about how to use the XO and sugar..they are using the laptops mainly for navigating on internet.
(04:49:55 PM) dirakx: [10:39:56] so i guess our education team might step up in those cases ?.
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:41:39] in my opinion.. the simpler we can be, the better
(04:49:55 PM) dirakx: [10:41:49] i don't know how are things on Ceibal, but they have to work more on classrooms.. although they are now more open to work with ceibal jam, that is usefull. :)
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:42:11] if we want teachers to participate
(04:49:55 PM) dfarning: [10:43:02] +1 for moodle forums,  many teach are familar with moodle
(04:49:55 PM) befana: [10:43:02] ClaudiaU: not only teachers students too
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:43:16] agree!
(04:49:55 PM) befana: [10:44:08] but peru, for example, if they don't have internet how we can get feedback from them
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:44:20] one way is learning advisers
(04:49:55 PM) walterbender: [10:44:44] befana: if we can come up aith a process... when the teachers come down from the mountain once per month, to exchange information
(04:49:55 PM) dfarning: [10:44:44] http://schools.sugarlabs.org/
(04:49:55 PM) _sj_ [n=sj_@wikipedia/sj] entered the room.
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:46:13] dfarning: http://primaria.perueduca.edu.pe/
(04:49:55 PM) JT4sugar: [10:46:25] befana, If they are sent a list of questions to be asked is there a way to digitally record meeting which then can be transfered to internet later
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:46:27] our friend koke contreras is leading a moodle effort from within the ministry
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:46:31] of educaction here in peru
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:46:36] he's being quite successful
(04:49:55 PM) befana: [10:46:48] icarito: good news :)
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:47:11] some teachers get together saturdays to work with some community members (yes KOKE)
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:47:17] we are planing a trip to the amazon in October
(04:49:55 PM) dfarning: [10:47:21] yes student/mentor or learning advisors are very effective and the scale very well
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:47:48] ClaudiaU: yes we organize those meetings, here at Escuelab
(04:49:55 PM) ClaudiaU: [10:48:07] yes.. i was at Escuelab this summer
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:48:31] also we have some motivated eng students, people are thinking of proposing a local lab
(04:49:55 PM) dfarning: [10:48:37] icarito: thanks, i will follow up on that
(04:49:55 PM) befana: [10:49:21] icarito: and your newsletter?? could we have a poll on it?
(04:49:55 PM) icarito: [10:49:28] ClaudiaU: yes i was away in Bolivia back then - now I'm a resident here 24/7 and dedicated to this as my project
(04:50:00 PM) icarito: befana we can put whatever we want on it - we hope to finish it this week - have already 5 articles, one by Koke
(04:50:10 PM) ClaudiaU: congratulations!!! Say hi to Kike!
(04:50:13 PM) icarito: what kind of poll do we want?
(04:50:20 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: thank you I will nice to meet you
(04:50:28 PM) icarito: finally ;-)
(04:50:35 PM) tomeu: sorry, I'm late
(04:50:43 PM) tomeu: calculated badly my local time
(04:50:44 PM) befana: tomeu: hi
(04:51:06 PM) ***tomeu reads the backlog
(04:52:27 PM) icarito: i recommend reading a bit on olpc-uruguay this week it has been quite active with some interesting discussions about how to get more feedback and participation from teachers
(04:53:11 PM) tomeu: ok, I will do some reading of the archives
(04:53:26 PM) tomeu: as a developer, I have some need for consolidated feedback
(04:53:31 PM) tomeu: to know on what to work
(04:53:42 PM) icarito: there was a discussion about them liking to have some j-clic like solution - and about a constructivist approach to using those kinds of tools
(04:53:57 PM) ClaudiaU: icarito: nice to meet you!!
(04:54:02 PM) icarito: tomeu: precisely they talked about bug reporting for instance
(04:54:27 PM) tomeu: icarito: yeah, having bugs tracked is very important
(04:54:43 PM) tomeu: but I would also like to know which are the X most important bugs to get fixed for deployment Y
(04:54:53 PM) tomeu: and also Z most important new features
(04:55:09 PM) tomeu: I think this would motivate a lot our fellow developers
(04:55:19 PM) tomeu: and also other roles in SLs
(04:55:26 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: you can have some idea about our work at http://blog.fuentelibre.org/ - and me http://blog.sebastiansilva.com/
(04:55:28 PM) dirakx: tomeu: we need also a deployment affected field on track as d.l.o
(04:55:55 PM) tomeu: dirakx: that would be already a great step forward
(04:56:01 PM) tomeu: though could be a bit more consolidated
(04:56:04 PM) ClaudiaU: icarito: great, thanks!!
(04:56:15 PM) tomeu: because when we have thousands of open bugs, we cannot go one per one
(04:56:44 PM) icarito: tomeu: do you think launchpad can help or we need something more? trouble is it's not i18n'd
(04:56:56 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: we organized http://sites.google.com/site/xohuarochiri/ with Koke
(04:56:59 PM) CanoeBerry: RT used to generate fantastic pie charts of (G1G1 in that case) complaint populatity :)
(04:57:02 PM) tomeu: icarito: haven't looked deep enough into LP yet :/
(04:57:13 PM) tomeu: CanoeBerry: that could be interesting
(04:57:43 PM) tomeu: or perhaps just get someone from each deployment to send a hand-crafted list of the few most important tickets?
(04:57:56 PM) tomeu: I think that if they are really important for them, they already know which are those
(04:58:10 PM) tomeu: but we are so far away, that have little idea :/
(04:58:22 PM) dirakx: RT seems to work well also (at least for me) . :)
(04:58:32 PM) dfarning: befana: can we go back to hear more about learning advisors?
(04:58:58 PM) ClaudiaU: learning advisers in Peru know those bugs
(04:59:11 PM) befana: dfarning: maybe ClaudiaU or icarito knows about them
(04:59:12 PM) ClaudiaU: they can tell them to you right there on the spot
(04:59:23 PM) erikos [n=erikos@g225094189.adsl.alicedsl.de] entered the room.
(04:59:27 PM) transbot0: _sj_> greetings, Icarito (and tomeu, befana, claudia)
(04:59:42 PM) ClaudiaU: I can collect them, but I rather ask them to get to you...
(04:59:45 PM) dfarning: One thing that has worked well so far has been to focus on an small concrete ideas and scale them if they work!
(04:59:46 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU , dfarning - how can we get good reports from peru learning advisors, can OLPC share that info?
(04:59:54 PM) icarito: _sj_: hi!
(05:00:01 PM) _sj_: hi CanoeBerry
(05:00:02 PM) dirakx: tomeu: as an experience is important that deployers work side by side with teachers or learning advises to file and trac bugs.
(05:00:05 PM) CanoeBerry: RT's categories need to be refined quarterly (or whatever) but if does help keep you honest, about what real problems are out there, if you actually do this.
(05:00:13 PM) ClaudiaU: i don't know if OLPC has it.. i don't
(05:00:16 PM) dirakx: tomeu: we are beginning to do so on SL .co.
(05:00:20 PM) _sj_: icarito, I'm in MVD this saturday for part of the ceibal Jam... are others here going to be there?
(05:00:22 PM) ClaudiaU: but I can get those from learning advisers
(05:00:56 PM) icarito: _sj_: not from our team no, i dont know if the Ministry sent someone from Digete
(05:01:36 PM) ClaudiaU: The learning advisers from Digete... I am in touch with them
(05:01:45 PM) tomeu: dirakx: we have had a start from teachers from .uy
(05:02:22 PM) icarito: guys now that we're all here, I too have the learning advisors emails - but it would help if we could decide what kind of feedback we want from them - like questions or what
(05:02:28 PM) dirakx: tomeu: that's another example, to make that visible those bugs we need that trac field.
(05:02:49 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: perhaps then you can help us by asking them for feedback - we all just need to decide what we want to ask them
(05:03:00 PM) icarito: these guys were 2 months with rural communities in the Andes
(05:03:11 PM) icarito: its the best feedback you can get
(05:03:12 PM) icarito: atm
(05:03:18 PM) tomeu: dirakx: yup, sounds good
(05:03:20 PM) icarito: those communities are isolated - no internet
(05:03:39 PM) icarito: i had a meeting with them before they left
(05:04:03 PM) dfarning: Rather, than think about deployment support as a whole, it might be more effective for the deployment team to identify, engage, and empower good learning advisors and support them
(05:04:17 PM) icarito: they were a bit frustrated because they felt they wanted to have done more - and be asked more
(05:04:49 PM) icarito: dfarning: yes i think that is a great point
(05:04:53 PM) icarito: it should be in our mission
(05:05:29 PM) ClaudiaU: icarito: when i said learning advisers i was talking about the ministry team
(05:05:39 PM) ClaudiaU: the interns.. i am also in touch with them
(05:06:04 PM) icarito: so i think we need to identify the kind of feedback we want and perhaps ClaudiaU could take the lead in getting in touch with them?
(05:06:33 PM) cjb [n=cjb@pullcord.laptop.org] entered the room.
(05:06:47 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: you mean the UROPs?
(05:06:56 PM) icarito: ah i see
(05:06:57 PM) befana: can we make a poll to inters and learning advisors can apply?
(05:07:05 PM) tomeu: ClaudiaU: one idea that may be crazy: perhaps someone at olpc la could make a list of the most important issues for each of the deployments they work with?
(05:07:07 PM) ClaudiaU: i am trying to have them come to olpc to hear from them what it is really happening there
(05:07:18 PM) tomeu: that may be a good first step before the deployments themselves do it directly
(05:07:32 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: good luck with that I've been trying for 2 years
(05:07:32 PM) ClaudiaU: sound good
(05:07:54 PM) ClaudiaU: icarito: good luck with?
(05:08:08 PM) icarito: "trying to have them come to olpc to hear from them what it is really happening there"
(05:08:27 PM) ClaudiaU: the students from the US who spent 6+ weeks in Peru
(05:08:43 PM) befana: in that way... we have a list of deployment places http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places
(05:08:55 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: ah well then we are talking about the same thing - I thought you said the learning team from digete at the ministry
(05:09:04 PM) dfarning: sorry, I mis uderstood learning advisor.... I took it to mean anyone who is currently helping deployers, teachers, or students use Sugar.... irregardless of their postion or title.
(05:09:05 PM) befana: ClaudiaU: could you ask for feed it?
(05:09:15 PM) icarito: there was a great list compiled by greg
(05:09:28 PM) ClaudiaU: I am talking about both
(05:09:34 PM) icarito: they had technical suggestions and they had deployment methodology suggestions
(05:09:46 PM) _sj_: claudia: would be very interesting
(05:10:26 PM) ClaudiaU: TO CLARIFY: I was first talking about learning advisers from DIGETE (Ministry)... the interns came after
(05:10:44 PM) ClaudiaU: but I am suggesting to get the list of bugs from learning advisors from Ministry
(05:10:54 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: they had suggestions - but they were sent with a preformatted feedback form with questions like "how many children in the classroom" - so they had some more feedback to share
(05:11:08 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: yes that is why I said good luck
(05:11:15 PM) icarito: I think we have a better chance with the  interns
(05:11:32 PM) icarito: because i think they understand better the kind of feedback we need
(05:11:44 PM) ClaudiaU: they started to give me the list of bugs when I worked with them during my visit
(05:12:05 PM) ClaudiaU: anyway.. we should approach both
(05:12:08 PM) ClaudiaU: i have to go soon
(05:12:21 PM) tomeu: befana: do we have any action items already?
(05:12:26 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: yes, we neeed that info to be publicly available
(05:12:28 PM) ClaudiaU: but.. there are 4 or more deployments in colombia
(05:12:42 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: for community building
(05:12:42 PM) ClaudiaU: a new one in nicaragua
(05:13:21 PM) ClaudiaU: i agree.... i didn't take note of those.. it was an informal conversation during workshop.. but i didn't really persue that topic
(05:13:22 PM) bemasc: ClaudiaU: do they have telephone numbers?  It would be great to be able to call them up once a month and say "how are things going?".
(05:13:23 PM) ClaudiaU: i can now
(05:13:29 PM) befana: tomeu: meeting bot is not working :(
(05:13:58 PM) icarito: there was a great list of collected feedback from the field that GregSmith collected, _sj_ do you know your wiki?
(05:14:08 PM) tomeu: befana: yeah, but even if not recorded, have we reached any conclusion where someone is made responsible to follow up about one of the topics?
(05:14:26 PM) ClaudiaU: i will leave this open and read the rest of the conversation..  i will be happy to get in touch with people i know and get some feedback for you.. but also put you in direct contact with you
(05:14:27 PM) bemasc: ClaudiaU: I would love for teachers in Uruguay to be able to add their telephone numbers to a list if they care for their opinion to be heard, and then we can call up a few at random every month and ask their opinion.
(05:14:49 PM) ClaudiaU: uruguay.. more complicated.. but i can try
(05:14:52 PM) befana: tomeu: you're right, i began to do the actions list
(05:14:58 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: thank you - we need to think about how to get feedback out there to the developers
(05:15:01 PM) ClaudiaU: the learning advisors are less opne.. i feel
(05:15:15 PM) icarito: uruguay is easier becasue they have internet
(05:15:19 PM) bemasc: Not just Uruguay, but teachers at all the deployments.
(05:15:21 PM) ClaudiaU: but teachers are more active in olpc-sur
(05:15:22 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: in uy learning advisors are not bottlenecks
(05:15:34 PM) icarito: ClaudiaU: yes internet helps for that ;-)
(05:15:41 PM) ClaudiaU: agree
(05:15:45 PM) ClaudiaU: bye now
(05:15:49 PM) icarito: bye
(05:16:04 PM) tomeu: bye!
(05:16:09 PM) ClaudiaU: tomeu: send me an email with a follow up? i will be happy to help
(05:16:26 PM) tomeu: ClaudiaU: great, we can discuss a bit more the format of such a first report
(05:16:44 PM) tomeu: so we can act on it as best as possible
(05:18:51 PM) ***icarito looking for the feedback greg collected on wiki.l.o
(05:18:54 PM) befana: ClaudiaU: next deployment meeting in 2 weeks
(05:19:09 PM) tomeu: icarito: it was discussed recently in iaep
(05:19:23 PM) dfarning: befana: +1
(05:20:09 PM) icarito: tomeu: so how is that list not what we need? how can we improve it?
(05:20:51 PM) tomeu: icarito: it's about features, which is good
(05:20:57 PM) tomeu: but we also need about bugs
(05:21:14 PM) icarito: tomeu: still cant find URL...
(05:21:19 PM) tomeu: icarito: and it's outdated, we have made pretty some advances
(05:21:53 PM) icarito: tomeu: trouble with such a list is its hard to keep updated
(05:22:16 PM) icarito: which is why dev.sl.o is cool but unfriendly - we need to make a questionaire of some sort
(05:22:24 PM) tomeu: icarito: yeah, but I think the people that work every day on such issues, already have a good knowledge of what should be improved
(05:22:24 PM) icarito: ?
(05:22:51 PM) tomeu: icarito: sounds good, whatever we do, I think it should be very practical, no need to find the perfect solution
(05:23:00 PM) icarito: i see trouble is deployments aren't using newer versions most of the time
(05:23:10 PM) tomeu: yeah, we need to take that into account
(05:23:25 PM) icarito: sometimes ancient versions *sigh*
(05:24:51 PM) icarito: do we need a censum?
(05:25:03 PM) icarito: like a poll of sorts?
(05:25:10 PM) icarito: it would be interesting to get some stats
(05:25:21 PM) icarito: perhaps those are more cientific than asking for a list of bugs
(05:25:36 PM) tomeu: icarito: I think that, right now, I only _need_ a list of the 10 most needed features and 20 most annoying bugs
(05:25:48 PM) _sj_: icarito, there's a summary at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:XO-Camp-Usersv3.ppt‎
(05:25:49 PM) tomeu: anything more complex than that is not worth as a first step
(05:25:59 PM) icarito: tomeu: so in reality what you need is like a testing team
(05:26:01 PM) tomeu: because at the end we end up getting nothing at all
(05:26:17 PM) tomeu: icarito: not sure how is it related
(05:26:51 PM) _sj_: icarito, and he included a lot of the feedback as requests on the feature roadmap.  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Feature_requests
(05:27:10 PM) icarito: tomeu: you need feedback on the latest version most of the time - perhaps you need a group you can suggest what to try and that will give you feedback the way you need it
(05:27:28 PM) icarito: tomeu: i'm planing to start a workshop for children here at escuelab perhaps we can be your testing team
(05:27:28 PM) tomeu: icarito: sure, we need that
(05:27:42 PM) tomeu: icarito: that would be really great
(05:27:54 PM) tomeu: but I still want that list of bugs per deployment ;)
(05:27:55 PM) ***befana come back in 10 minutes
(05:28:06 PM) tomeu: so we can move forward on both things in parallel
(05:28:37 PM) icarito: tomeu: so that is pretty much what you need - list of bugs / features per deployment - i will think how to get that - we will include a poll in the newsletter
(05:28:59 PM) icarito: that is cool - making a note about ir
(05:29:03 PM) icarito: :-)
(05:29:14 PM) tomeu: icarito: great!
(05:29:32 PM) tomeu: icarito: want to add your deployment here with you as contact person? http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/DeploymentTeam/Places
(05:29:41 PM) tomeu: oops, this one: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places
(05:30:37 PM) bemasc: _sj_: Do you find that a lot of deployments have telephone connectivity?
(05:30:57 PM) icarito: bemasc: probably way more than they have Internet
(05:31:59 PM) bemasc: I think it would be really cool to be able to call up each deployment every month and ask how things are going, and what sorts of problems they've encountered.
(05:32:24 PM) tomeu: bemasc: I think that can be very useful
(05:32:39 PM) bemasc: If OLPC doesn't want to do this, Sugar Labs would be happy to take on the problem of soliciting feedback on the the software this way, but we don't know whom to call.
(05:33:38 PM) bemasc: I think it would especially cool if we could get teachers to "put their phone numbers in a hat", so we can call a few random teachers instead of talking to the same few admins all the time.
(05:34:06 PM) icarito: bemasc: and then what, write reports, or record the conversation?
(05:34:15 PM) tomeu: bemasc: about this general issue of some deployments not seeing the value of interacting directly with us (which is understandable), my position is that we should work first with the ones that are already working with us, then advertise the successes. I trust that others will follow then
(05:34:16 PM) walterbender left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(05:34:23 PM) icarito: bemasc: what about a radio programme podcast thing?
(05:34:32 PM) bemasc: tomeu: advertise how?  We have no way to contact most of them!
(05:34:40 PM) icarito: bemasc: a podcast we can distirbute via ogg even without internet
(05:34:58 PM) tomeu: bemasc: I think we can get a contact for most of them
(05:34:59 PM) bemasc: I see a podcast as something else.
(05:35:16 PM) tomeu: bemasc: it's more that they don't have time to deal with us, because see not enough value
(05:35:17 PM) bemasc: tomeu: I have no idea whom to contact in Mongolia, for example.
(05:35:23 PM) _sj_: tomeu: +1
(05:35:26 PM) tomeu: bemasc: I know whom to ask for contacts
(05:35:46 PM) icarito: do you guys think "mumble" software could help us record a int'l podcast ?
(05:35:47 PM) bemasc: tomeu: I don't.  I also don't know what medium of communication is most effective.
(05:36:26 PM) icarito: we could try to set something up at our saturday meetings
(05:36:26 PM) bemasc: tomeu: Anyway, I don't have any evidence that the deployments are talking to each other, so I don't see how a message like "Sugar Labs is helpful" could spread.
(05:36:34 PM) tomeu: bemasc: the point that I try to make across, is that there are several very good things we can do today, there's no point in complaining of what we cannot do yet. that will come with time
(05:37:00 PM) tomeu: bemasc: you have seen how some olpc deployments have complained that the gpa deployment gets more attention than then
(05:37:10 PM) tomeu: envy and fear are very powerful forces ;)
(05:37:10 PM) bemasc: No, I haven't.
(05:37:19 PM) tomeu: bemasc: well, search for GPA in iaep
(05:37:26 PM) tomeu: we people are like that
(05:37:31 PM) JT4sugar: bemasc, Having deployments have a lead Teacher at each grade level and talking to each would be important. The teacher who is teaching a 9yr old will have different concerns than a teacher who is with 11 yrs old
(05:37:35 PM) bemasc: I've heard such complaints from people unaffiliated with any deployments.
(05:37:54 PM) bemasc: JT4sugar: I think we need to hear from everyone.
(05:38:26 PM) tomeu: bemasc: don't know what to say, I'm saying what I trust to be a way to move forward, it's obvious that the best plan can fail
(05:38:59 PM) tomeu: but we need to make progress somehow
(05:39:20 PM) bemasc: What I am really arguing is that OLPC should make Sugar Labs an official component of its software development team, and give us access to all of its education-side contact info for deployments, with the understanding that we will keep it private.
(05:39:24 PM) tomeu: already working together with the deployments that are in contact with us is worth in itself
(05:39:28 PM) JT4sugar: bemasc, I also think that is important just wanted to point out you could get very different feedback depending on age group
(05:39:43 PM) tomeu: bemasc: that sounds good, but I would prefer not to block on it
(05:40:09 PM) bemasc: I am specifically arguing this because _sj_ seems to be within earshot.
(05:40:12 PM) _sj_: bemasc: some do.  it's not usually convenient/reliable/free.  so it's a bootstrapping problem, to establish a reason for a group to schedule this sort of communication
(05:40:45 PM) bemasc: _sj_: Yep.  It's a tricky problem.
(05:41:06 PM) _sj_: so, build a network one by one, and make sure each group in regular contact gets value from it.
(05:41:20 PM) bemasc: _sj_: Anyway, I hope you will keep this in mind if you learn of a deployment that, for example, has free incoming telephone calls and widespread mobile phone usage.
(05:41:21 PM) _sj_: this is what greg did when he was soliciting specific feedback
(05:41:26 PM) _sj_: sometimes by finding contacts through their blogs.
(05:41:39 PM) _sj_: bemasc: <nod>
(05:42:30 PM) _sj_: you may be more likely to find good contacts by observing who is writing online than through any formal means; since they've already made the decision to share information about their schooldays
(05:42:55 PM) bemasc: Perhaps.  My feeling is that gets us to the most technical 1%, which is not really who I want to talk to.
(05:43:26 PM) bemasc: But that's certainly a debatable point.
(05:43:51 PM) ***bemasc is done.
(05:44:04 PM) tomeu: something that concerns me is that we are having good ideas about what to do next, but we are already spread quite a bit thin
(05:44:13 PM) tomeu: so we should think about increasing our community as well
(05:44:47 PM) tomeu: that's why I want this list, because we can advertise it and tell people that if they help us fixing bug X, children in nepal will be happy
(05:45:18 PM) tomeu: or we can tell someone that by calling a couple teachers in a week, they are improving learning in their country of origin
(05:45:33 PM) tomeu: I think this can be very powerful in getting people involved
(05:45:35 PM) JT4sugar: bemasc, the direct approach by phone to those willing I think would garner alot of useful info. Chances are most schools have phones its just a matter of scheduling time. Teachers always like a break from the classroom
(05:45:54 PM) tomeu: rather just ecpecting from then that start coding for an exciting FOSS project
(05:46:19 PM) tomeu: JT4sugar: +1
(05:46:22 PM) icarito: i think a small text info about who we are and why we need that feedback prior to a call would be nice
(05:46:30 PM) tomeu: good point
(05:46:47 PM) icarito: most teachers wont have an idea of who we are
(05:46:52 PM) tomeu: do we need to ask for permission to the deployer organization first?
(05:47:07 PM) JT4sugar: A set of questions they can ponder before call would also be helpful
(05:48:18 PM) tomeu: good point
(05:48:46 PM) icarito: tomeu: my approach is i need no permission to help
(05:48:50 PM) icarito: this is education ;-)
(05:49:07 PM) JT4sugar: icarito, +1
(05:49:22 PM) icarito: tomeu: unless maybe you're in Iraq or USA or something ;-)
(05:49:31 PM) tomeu: sounds good, we can ask for forgiveness afterwards
(05:51:10 PM) JT4sugar: tomeu, If I was to call a deployment tomorrow what are the Five key questions you would want me to ask a 1) Teacher 2) Student 3) The Tech person
(05:52:48 PM) bemasc: My only question is: "what changes would you like us to make to the software?"
(05:53:19 PM) tomeu: yeah, that's what I want to know as well, though maybe that's not a question they can answer best?
(05:53:40 PM) bemasc: They will tell us something.
(05:54:00 PM) tomeu: some rural teachers that don't know what software is may have problems with that
(05:54:01 PM) bemasc: The real reason I want to ask this question is not to get an answer, but to tell them that we want to know the answer.
(05:54:17 PM) tomeu: well, sure, that's the reason why we ask
(05:54:18 PM) bemasc: tomeu: I consider that a translation problem.
(05:54:29 PM) tomeu: translation?
(05:54:46 PM) bemasc: tomeu: translating the word "software" into something understood in the local vocabulary.
(05:55:03 PM) tomeu: don't think so, most people don't know what is sfotware and what is hardware
(05:55:12 PM) dirakx: tomeu: bemasc a question form uy deployment sugar can be used totally with TAB and ENTER ?  (re acccesibility)  forgive the OT.
(05:55:30 PM) tomeu: dirakx: cannot at present
(05:55:34 PM) dirakx: tomeu: k
(05:56:09 PM) bemasc: tomeu: I think "the system that runs on the laptops" would be pretty clear.  Clarifying the topic is part of any conversation.
(05:56:13 PM) bemasc: Appparently including this one.
(05:56:19 PM) tomeu: dirakx: but is something worth thinking about
(05:56:36 PM) tomeu: bemasc: ok, no need to discuss these details now
(05:56:52 PM) dirakx: tomeu: this is a requirement for example for people with visual impediments.
(05:57:44 PM) tomeu: dirakx: yeah, read the email
(05:57:54 PM) bemasc: (It would also help with touchpad issues.)
(05:58:01 PM) dirakx: good.
(05:58:30 PM) dirakx: i was sure of this but is better to ask first.
(06:01:09 PM) ***befana sorry, i just come again
(06:02:24 PM) tomeu: befana: we got a bit off topic, where are we in the initial agenda?
(06:02:31 PM) tomeu: everyting has been discussed already?
(06:02:42 PM) icarito: bemasc: are you volunteering to conduct these telephone intvws?
(06:03:32 PM) icarito: or just saying it'd be nice if somebody did those?
(06:03:45 PM) bemasc: icarito: I don't think my Spanish/Mongolian/Dari/Arabic is good enough
(06:04:01 PM) bemasc: One of our challenges is to find contributors who speak many languages
(06:04:06 PM) icarito: bemasc: so intvw english speaking deployers
(06:04:32 PM) bemasc: but I think we can find people who would be willing to speak for us
(06:04:58 PM) bemasc: I would be more than happy to talk to English-speaking deployments.
(06:05:08 PM) bemasc: I wish I had a contact in Birmingham...
(06:05:39 PM) dfarning: befana: are you still around?
(06:05:40 PM) icarito: so start there perhaps - see what you find - for instance - this letter explaining who we are and what we do and why we need feedback
(06:05:45 PM) icarito: i would love to have and i can translate
(06:06:21 PM) bemasc: I will try to contact Birmingham.
(06:07:38 PM) dfarning: I think our stongest approach is to identify a handful of deployment enablers, people who are making individual deployments happen, and figure out how to engage them more effectively.
(06:08:03 PM) tomeu: dfarning++
(06:08:13 PM) tomeu: that was the point of the places page I linked above
(06:08:17 PM) tomeu: identify those
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(06:10:35 PM) befana: dfarning: yes i'm here
(06:10:43 PM) befana: i was reading the last minutes
(06:11:53 PM) dfarning: tomeu: yes,  tools and other stuff come second.  First step is to identify the effective deployers and then figure out how they want to talk with us
(06:12:34 PM) befana: dfarning: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Deployment_Team/Places
(06:12:51 PM) tomeu: dfarning: we have some already, I propose starting with those and increase the circle in a second phase
(06:12:54 PM) dirakx: dfarning: i want to state a problem. at least that happens on big deployments, is that deployment enablers are cohivited by bureocracy, and other ones that are not restrained by beurocracy, dont have enough power to make any changes on how things are progressing because of the great machinery behind the deployment itself.
(06:14:23 PM) befana: dirakx: i agree, but we have to contact with teachers and students in those big deployments
(06:14:34 PM) dirakx: right.
(06:14:59 PM) dirakx: direct contact.
(06:15:10 PM) dfarning: dirakx: yes, a deployment enabler is not necessarily the person in charge.  It might be more effective to work with a motivate teacher who is doing interesting stuff in their class room.
(06:15:13 PM) JT4sugar: bemasc, Birmingham Contact to try-Principal Glen Iris Elementary- Mike Wilson:
(06:15:13 PM) JT4sugar: http://gleniris.bce.schoolinsites.com/?PageName=%27PrincipalsCorner%27
(06:16:17 PM) befana: so, i want to extract some actions from this meeting,
(06:16:22 PM) bemasc: Yeah, I was just looking at Glen Iris
(06:16:30 PM) bemasc: They even have an "XO help desk" phone number
(06:16:33 PM) bemasc: I might call that.
(06:16:46 PM) icarito: dfarning: for instance koke contreras is a deployment enabler here in peru - but he does not even work with the ministry's tech team
(06:17:16 PM) icarito: his job is in a different department (multi-grade classroom schools)
(06:17:17 PM) tomeu: icarito: sounds like a good contact for what we want
(06:17:25 PM) dfarning: icarito: +10 he is the contact we need.
(06:18:32 PM) JT4sugar: bemasc, I was referred to him by Prof. Shelia Cotten she is doing  XO study out of University Alabama-Birmingham
(06:19:20 PM) dfarning: befana: action item identify, engage, and empower deployment enablers!
(06:19:45 PM) tomeu: bemasc: about mongolia, the gnome user group seems to be quite active, we might be able to involve them in this
(06:20:19 PM) befana: 1. we need a list of deployments, with contacs, and which comunication channel could be useful
(06:20:39 PM) bemasc: tomeu: that would be great.
(06:20:58 PM) tomeu: bemasc: saw some posts from them in the gnome planet
(06:21:04 PM) tomeu: they have a wiki
(06:21:10 PM) befana: 2. We need a poll with our questions for teachers, students, learning advisor, etc
(06:25:39 PM) icarito: olpc-uruguay keeps getting interesting
(06:25:41 PM) icarito: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-uruguay/2009-September/000799.html
(06:25:50 PM) icarito: a parent went in to talk to the principal, to get us feedback
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(06:26:28 PM) CanoeBerry left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(06:28:29 PM) bemasc: aa__: A message on Olpc-uruguay says that there are going to be "open schools" on September 12th.  Maybe you could organize volunteers to go to their local schools that day and talk to teachers?
(06:28:41 PM) befana: 3. we need some tools: LP, moodle forums, getsatisfaction, Skype meetings, RT, etc
(06:29:07 PM) icarito: ceibal jam / rap ceibal - can probably run the poll / questions we have
(06:29:27 PM) dirakx: befana: dimdim ;)
(06:32:57 PM) befana: dirakx: dimdim, openmeeting, ....
(06:33:15 PM) JT4sugar: Try to have volunteers bring digital recorders to meetings for places without internet-can post later. And record Skype meetings
(06:33:39 PM) dirakx: JT4sugar: +1
(06:34:01 PM) befana: JT4sugar: podcast :)
(06:34:42 PM) dirakx: i want to propose an action item that is create the deployment affected field in track.
(06:37:02 PM) cjl [n=chatzill@ool-45735eb0.dyn.optonline.net] entered the room.
(06:37:46 PM) JT4sugar: befana, If the connectivity is there, absolutely
(06:37:50 PM) befana: dirakx: good... i think we need to know how to include all this feedback on trac
(06:39:15 PM) dirakx: anymore action items?
(06:40:07 PM) dirakx: can we close the meeting it's about two hours now..or anyone has anything further to say. ?
(06:40:48 PM) befana: well, i'm going to reed carrefully all meeting to send a resume to iaep and sugar-devel lists
(06:41:06 PM) befana: #endmeeting