Design Team/Meetings/2010-07-10

Design Team/Meetings#Saturday 10 July 2010 14:30 UTC

[10:31] == christianmarcsch [~christian@cpe-69-203-208-242.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #sugar-meeting [10:32] <christianmarcsch> hi everyone [10:32] <walterbender> hi christianmarcsch [10:32] <christianmarcsch> hi walter! [10:33] <christianmarcsch> is gary there? [10:33] <walterbender> not yet, it seems [10:33] <christianmarcsch> did you see the PDF? [10:34] <walterbender> yes... It looks good... but I think it is overkill [10:34] <christianmarcsch> yes, we should discuss what the best solution would be [10:35] <christianmarcsch> showing palettes sooner may work, though i think there may be some usability issues since they cover up so much of the screen (and hide other objects that you could interact with) [10:36] <walterbender> if the initial pop-up is just start-resume-most-recent, that is pretty compact [10:37] <silbe> oh, so 14:30 UTC already, not 15:30? [10:39] <walterbender> We are +4 this time of year on the East Coast [10:40] <walterbender> err. -4 [10:41] <silbe> that's why it's always a good idea to agree on times based on UTC, so everyone can do the calculation based on UTC instead of introducing errors while doing the offset calculation twice. [10:41] <silbe> date -d '<date> UTC' will always print the correct local time [10:42] <silbe> (it's important to use <date> of the meeting in case it's near a change of DST) [10:43] * walterbender would prefer to wait until 15:30UTC... [10:44] <christianmarcsch> i may not be able to do 15:30... [10:44] <christianmarcsch> we could try tomorrow? [10:45] <christianmarcsch> walter, i think that a shorter palette delay may work, but i'm a bit concerned about immediate visibility [10:45] <christianmarcsch> i've run into similar situations, where hover behavior causes elements to appear over other objects, making them hard to reach [10:46] <walterbender> christianmarcsch: then we are still back to the question of resume vs new... [10:46] <christianmarcsch> right, yes [10:46] <christianmarcsch> well, [10:46] <christianmarcsch> one possibility is that we show a smaller palette on click [10:46] <christianmarcsch> (instead of the modal dialog) [10:47] <christianmarcsch> so, something in between the modal dialog, and the hover palette [10:48] * walterbender trying to picture it... [10:51] <christianmarcsch> gary had a sketch of something similar a while ago [10:51] <christianmarcsch> maybe we should have that for comparison [10:53] <walterbender> maybe we can sketch out each of these ideas and try them... the two-item pop up should be easy enough to try... [10:54] <christianmarcsch> you mean in code? that would be ideal [10:54] <christianmarcsch> then we can really get a sense for the interaction [10:54] <walterbender> yes... code... [10:55] <christianmarcsch> when you say two-item pop up, are you thinking the "resume" item would open up into a secondary menu? [10:55] <christianmarcsch> or would it go to the journal? [10:55] <walterbender> not sure which... [10:55] <christianmarcsch> or would it resume the last activity? [10:55] <christianmarcsch> with only two items i don't think there is a usability issue [10:56] <walterbender> I think new or most recent is a reasonable compromise... [10:57] <christianmarcsch> i agree [10:57] <christianmarcsch> that seems low-cost, and addresses the issue [10:58] <walterbender> and also, a small change from the UI perspective, so it is likely to be accepted down stream... [10:58] <silbe> what exactly are you envisioning? I don't quite get it from your descriptions... [10:58] <christianmarcsch> so, is resume then still the default click behavior? [10:58] <christianmarcsch> i'll create a quick mockup [10:59] <walterbender> that is debatable... [10:59] <walterbender> silbe: the idea is as I described it in my email: an instant (or very quick) pop up of a choice of start new or resume most recent. [10:59] <walterbender> silbe: a longer delay (as we currently have) for the full palette of choices [11:00] <silbe> walterbender: so like the mockups Michael and Gary (IIRC) produced some months ago? [11:01] <walterbender> silbe: yes [11:01] <walterbender> and no modal dialog [11:02] <walterbender> I worry about adding an extra step and I worry about introducing a radical change to the behavior that won't be accepted downstream [11:02] <walterbender> so I like the Gary/Michael proposal [11:03] <walterbender> and I like the additional simplicity of just two choices to start: new and resume [11:03] <silbe> no modal dialog sounds good (though I'd just spawn the dialog in a new window instead of making it modal) [11:04] <christianmarcsch> hang on, about to send a sketch [11:04] <silbe> but I'd need to try it out to say anything about how good it might work [11:06] <christianmarcsch> ok, just send another PDF [11:06] <christianmarcsch> the idea is that a single click would resume, and selecting from the (immediate) hover would start new [11:06] <christianmarcsch> this could be inverted based on the user-settings [11:07] <silbe> what exactly would a single click resume? the most recent instance? [11:07] <silbe> and how would it be different from what we have now? [11:08] <christianmarcsch> the most recent instance, yes [11:08] <christianmarcsch> the difference is that the hover preview appears immediately, not on delay [11:09] <christianmarcsch> the reason it can appear immediately is that it doesn't obstruct much content below (a usability issue with the current size of our hover palettes) [11:09] <christianmarcsch> anyway [11:09] <christianmarcsch> i liked walter's idea of mocking up both options and evaluating which performs better [11:10] <silbe> so delay removed, but also only a single entry so users have to go to the Journal if the want an instance that's not the most recent one, but need to use the home screen to start a new one and can use it to resume the most recent one? [11:10] <christianmarcsch> yes [11:11] <christianmarcsch> it seems like a fair compromise [11:11] <christianmarcsch> the modal dialog would be the more extensive of the two options [11:11] <christianmarcsch> so we can put both side-by-side, and evaluate how much functionality is needed [11:11] <silbe> I don't think it's a good choice. [11:12] <christianmarcsch> you don't think the last option is? or both? [11:13] <christianmarcsch> i think there is a certain elegance to walter's proposal [11:13] <silbe> the reason I use the home screen for resuming is because it has a list of instances filtered by activity. So I can choose the activity by moving the mouse onto it and then choose the instance I want, instead of having to move through a huge listbox in the journal and then choose from the resulting list. [11:14] <christianmarcsch> well so that's the choice [11:14] <silbe> Most of the time the instance I'm resuming is not the most recent one. [11:14] <christianmarcsch> for what you are describing, the modal dialog could work [11:14] <christianmarcsch> because we would still retain the hover palette [11:14] <christianmarcsch> but of course, we can also evaluate these two options against what we have today [11:14] <christianmarcsch> if today's version wins out, then perhaps there is no need for a change [11:14] <silbe> that's why I like it. I imagine it as a Journal grid view pre-filtered by activity [11:15] <christianmarcsch> yes, i agree that's what i like about that idea, as well [11:15] <christianmarcsch> but personally i'm on the fence as to which i'd prefer [11:15] <christianmarcsch> which is why i like the notion of prototyping both [11:16] <christianmarcsch> then we can all make a more informed decision [11:16] <silbe> I don't think having only resume-most-recent in the home screen is useful. Either remove it completely and improve the Journal, or leave the option to choose from multiple instances. [11:17] <christianmarcsch> do you still have a mockup of the gary/michael proposal? [11:17] <christianmarcsch> i want to make sure i remember it correctly [11:18] <silbe> it should be in the list archives [11:19] == garycmartin [~garycmart@95.146.9.144] has joined #sugar-meeting [11:19] <christianmarcsch> hi gary [11:19] <garycmartin> Hi christianmarcsch, just signing in early :) [11:19] == scorche [~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche] has quit [Disconnected by services] [11:19] <christianmarcsch> hah [11:20] == scorche` [~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche] has joined #sugar-meeting [11:20] <christianmarcsch> i thought we were on at 10:30/2:30 [11:20] <christianmarcsch> but i fear i caused some confusion with the time conversion [11:20] <garycmartin> Aaaaagh! [11:21] <christianmarcsch> :) [11:21] <garycmartin> Has the meeting happened? [11:21] <christianmarcsch> well, sort of [11:21] <christianmarcsch> we were still discussing [11:21] <christianmarcsch> take a look at the two pdfs i sent [11:21] <christianmarcsch> walter had proposed an option similar to the last one [11:22] <christianmarcsch> which i personally find quite elegant, as an alternative for the more extensive modal dialog [11:22] <silbe> has anyone started meetbot, BTW? [11:22] <christianmarcsch> i also wanted to ask if you could forward the sketch you and michael had produced earlier? [11:22] <christianmarcsch> silbe: no, i don't believe so [11:22] <silbe> #startmeeting [11:22] <meeting> Meeting started at 11:25 UTC. The chair is silbe. [11:22] <meeting> Commands Available: #TOPIC, #IDEA, #ACTION, #AGREED, #LINK [11:23] <christianmarcsch> let me recap the options as i currently see them [11:23] <silbe> #topic Start New/Resume from home screen [11:23] <garycmartin> Hmm, been looking at the first pdf, the second looks borked. May just have a bad extension name. [11:23] <christianmarcsch> i'll resend [11:23] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: yea just a bad name, needs .pdf [11:24] <christianmarcsch> ok, i also resent as a single PDF (all three options) [11:24] <christianmarcsch> so... [11:24] <christianmarcsch> Option 1A: Modal dialog with full hover palette [11:24] <christianmarcsch> Option 1B: Modal dialog with only hover preview [11:24] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: fwiw I was just mocking up Walters pi menu suggestion. [11:25] <christianmarcsch> Option 2: Immediate hover palette with only two options: resume the latest (on click), or start new [11:25] <christianmarcsch> garycmartin: that's great--can you share it yet? [11:25] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: Pie menus have some advantages but are notoriously painful to implement and get working right. [11:25] <christianmarcsch> garycmartin: yes, i agree. worth looking at, though [11:26] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: not done yet, having trouble with the layout myself :) [11:26] <christianmarcsch> so, walter had made a suggestion that we code each of these options and compare them [11:27] <christianmarcsch> i think that might be a good idea, so we can better evaluate each [11:27] <silbe> Option 3: New full-screen window with Journal grid view pre-filtered by activity [11:27] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: So is Walter offering to code them? ;) [11:27] <christianmarcsch> silbe: isn't that similar to the modal dialog? [11:28] <silbe> christianmarcsch: similar, but distinctive enough to list separately [11:28] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so it basically takes you to a prefiltered journal? [11:29] <silbe> christianmarcsch: exactly [11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: on click? [11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: i feel that it could be an option in the hover palette, but on click it may feel too indirect [11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: that's why we ended up with a modal dialog--it still keeps you in context of the home view [11:29] <silbe> christianmarcsch: yep. Start New should be an option in the full-screen window as well. [11:30] <silbe> christianmarcsch: how would you trigger and dismiss the modal dialog? [11:30] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so, i view this option as a variation of the modal dialog. we keep the dialog, but make it more extensive [11:30] <garycmartin> Seeing as we suddenly have so many new suggestions, perhaps we should skip the realtime meeting and take some time to look at them using the mail-list? [11:30] <christianmarcsch> silbe: look at the pdf: you can either click the X, or click the grayed out background around it [11:30] <silbe> and make it non-modal because modal is a PITA [11:30] <christianmarcsch> PITA? [11:31] <silbe> christianmarcsch: and how do you trigger it? clicking on an activity? [11:31] <christianmarcsch> silbe: yes [11:31] <silbe> pain in the backside ;) [11:31] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so, imagine we took this dialog and added a scrollbar [11:32] <christianmarcsch> silbe: then we would have what you are describing, right? [11:32] <christianmarcsch> silbe: it sounds like what you are looking for is to show more activities [11:33] <silbe> more or less - except that I'd use the grid view (=> preview images) and make it non-modal. [11:33] == m_anish [~anishmang@59.178.155.177] has joined #sugar-meeting [11:33] <christianmarcsch> and by the way, we can also try list of grid view [11:33] <christianmarcsch> silbe: yes, we can do that [11:33] <silbe> and showing the start new in the "dialog" as well [11:33] <christianmarcsch> ok, i'll record that as another design exploration [11:33] <silbe> so they can decide whether to start new or resume based on the full list of old instances [11:34] <christianmarcsch> silbe: ok, that makes sense. [11:34] <christianmarcsch> i'll mock up that variation [11:34] <silbe> I don't think it's optimal, but it might be a good step in the right direction [11:35] <silbe> christianmarcsch: thanks! [11:35] <silbe> IIRC garycmartin mentioned Apple doing something similar on the iPad [11:35] <christianmarcsch> silbe: oh, that would be good to see [11:36] <garycmartin> silbe: sorry, this meeting is not working for me, no idea what is being discussed. Was about to bail and ask folks to offline ideas to the mail-list. [11:36] <christianmarcsch> gary, i can create a mockup [11:37] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: fab. I'll plough on with the pie menu mockup and will mail it to the list. [11:37] <christianmarcsch> it's a more extensive version of page 3 in the pdf [11:37] <christianmarcsch> great [11:37] <christianmarcsch> i can talk again tomorrow if that works? [11:40] <garycmartin> Can we try and get some threads going on the mail-list? Would find that easier, then use realtime chats only if we need to flesh things out or try to make a final call. [11:40] <christianmarcsch> ok, sure [11:40] <christianmarcsch> should we keep using the thread walter started? [11:41] <garycmartin> Sure, remember to adjust the subject if needed. [11:41] <christianmarcsch> will do [11:42] <silbe> please start a new thread - the current one was about bernies pending patches and is already huge [11:43] <christianmarcsch> ok... [11:43] <garycmartin> LOL :) [11:45] <christianmarcsch> well, to be continued! [11:45] <christianmarcsch> i need to sign off [11:45] <christianmarcsch> looking forward to the next round [11:45] <silbe> so are we meeting again tomorrow or not? [11:45] <christianmarcsch> i can if necessary [11:45] <christianmarcsch> but i think gary preferred to do it asynchronously [11:45] <garycmartin> Sorry, not me. [11:45] <silbe> ok, then let's postpone it. [11:45] <christianmarcsch> let's discuss via email thread for now [11:46] <christianmarcsch> and reconvene here when it becomes necessary [11:46] <silbe> as long as we keep the emails flowing that's fine with me [11:46] <garycmartin> Thanks christianmarcsch, I'll catch up on the list. [11:46] <silbe> we have a rather large backlog already and quite a bit of it was on the mailing list [11:47] <christianmarcsch> sorry, i have to sign off now [11:47] <silbe> #endmeeting [11:47] <meeting> Meeting finished at 11:49. [11:47] <meeting> Logs available at http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/sugar-meeting.log.20100710_1125.html [11:47] <christianmarcsch> bye everyone!