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Oversight Board/2009/Log-2009-02-02 (view source)
Revision as of 11:39, 2 February 2009
, 11:39, 2 February 2009New page: :'''<walterbender>''' shall we get started? :'''<walterbender>''' Marco is at the dentist. :'''<walterbender>''' Does anyone know if Dfarning will be joining us? :'''<bernie>''' where's df...
:'''<walterbender>''' shall we get started?
:'''<walterbender>''' Marco is at the dentist.
:'''<walterbender>''' Does anyone know if Dfarning will be joining us?
:'''<bernie>''' where's dfarning?
:'''<tomeu>''' he was taking some time off, right?
:'''<tomeu>''' not sure if he's back or not
:'''<walterbender>''' yeah
:'''<walterbender>''' how about cjb?
:'''<gregdek>''' What, is Marco getting every tooth pulled? Every time I turn around, he's at the dentist.
:'''<walterbender>''' too mcuh sugar in his life
:'''<tomeu>''' clearly
:'''<walterbender>''' I would like to focus on a few issues today:
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I "called" him
:'''<walterbender>''' (1) status of the new release
:'''<bernie>''' mchua|zzz: zzz?
:'''<walterbender>''' (2) what we want to ask of OLPC going forward
:'''<walterbender>''' (3) the slobs email controversy and community relations in general
:'''<walterbender>''' (4) FOSDEM
:'''<walterbender>''' (5) finances and prospects
:'''<walterbender>''' Anything else on people's minds?
:'''<walterbender>''' Well, chime in as we get going.
:'''<tomeu>''' nope
:'''<walterbender>''' Is erikos here?
:'''<bernie>''' nope
:'''<tomeu>''' haven't seen him today
:'' gregdek is lurking while he handles flight details on phone.
:'''<tomeu>''' about the new release, I'm a bit concerned that we are landing big user experience changes and I'm not sure we have gotten enough feedback
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe we should leave #1 to the end then in case he shows up (and marco may be able to join us towards the end as welll)
:'''<tomeu>''' makes sense
:'''<walterbender>''' Topic: OLPC
:'''<walterbender>''' I spoke with Chuck and Ed after the OLPC announcement and they asked me to make a proposal from SL about what we would want from them going forward...
:'''<walterbender>''' A few ideas have been floated: a server (bernie), support for a few important changes to Write (gregdek),
:'''<tomeu>''' hmm, what OLPC needs that we can help with?
:'''<walterbender>''' clarity about who is still at OLPC and with whom we should be interfacing (walter)
:'''<gregdek>''' (specifically, solving the collaboration crash issues in Write)
:'''<walterbender>''' also, some clarity around support and RT
:'''<walterbender>''' For example, it is still not clear to me if there is still a support gang at OLPC
:'''<walterbender>''' and testing...
:'''<walterbender>''' anything else we should ask them for?
:'''<tomeu>''' from NN's announcement, I have trouble making myself an idea of what OLPC cares about now
:'''<tomeu>''' so I don't really know what we can ask them that makes sense to them
:'''<gregdek>''' Maybe we should be talking to Adam Holt directly about Support Gang?
:'''<gregdek>''' If anyone will know, he will.
:'''<ChristophD>''' the support gang is still very active at OLPC - at the moment that is but who knows for how much longer
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek++
:'''<walterbender>''' It is a bit strange... on the one hand, they have said some very positive things about Sugar; on the other, still talk about how we are about of fundamentalist, shooting ourselves in the foot...
:'''<walterbender>''' but the bottom line is that theya re still our biggest deployment and we should help them any way we can
:'''<caroline>''' General coordination of incoming volunteers
:'''<walterbender>''' I think that OLPC would like to feed their volunteers to us...
:'''<caroline>''' yes, I think so too.
:'''<walterbender>''' should we ask them to fund a volunteer coordinator at SL?
:'''<gregdek>''' Is that the impression you get?
:'''<tomeu>''' but is OLPC a deployment? or deployments are uruguay, nepal, peru, etc?
:'''<gregdek>''' Have they actually *said* that?
:'''<walterbender>''' Yes. In so many words.
:'''<walterbender>''' They have a lot of universities pledging people...
:'''<gregdek>''' Then yes, we should ask them to fund a volunteer coordinator.
:'''<walterbender>''' and need help coordinating them.
:'''<tomeu>''' lots of work to do in that area
:'''<walterbender>''' So we are prepared to take the step of hiring prof. management...
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: what about the PM who was going to join us some time ago?
:'''<tomeu>''' prime minister?
:'''<walterbender>''' Bernie: please refresh my memory...
:'''<walterbender>''' I have a small cache and no diskspace
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I don't think he wanted his name to go public yet
:'''<bernie>''' now they will accuse us of conspiracy :-/
:''edmcnierney tunes in due to request from bernie - hi there.''
:'''<walterbender>''' no need for a name, but the idea?
:'''<walterbender>''' hi ed... timely entry
:'''<edmcnierney>''' I think I'm just reiterating walterbender's point that Chuck and I would like to hear a proposal on SL support from OLPC.
:'''| unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<walterbender>''' We haven't had a chance to gather as a group for a while, hence our delay getting back to you.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' That's definitely something we're still interested in doing, but it would really help to get a coordinated, comprehensive proposal rather than an assortment of individual requests.
:'''<walterbender>''' +1
:'''<tomeu>''' what means "SL support" here?
:'''<walterbender>''' That is why we are discussing it here--to get everyone's ideas on the table.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Yes, I realize you've been busy :)
:'''<bernie>''' yeah, coding
:'''<walterbender>''' edmcnierney: do you have the log from the last 10 minutes?
:'''<edmcnierney>''' yes
:'''| cwhii (n=cwhii@adsl-69-227-95-58.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<caroline>''' I think we are goign to be in a situation where prospective deployments are decidign between XOs, netbooks of various brands and SoaS. Can we do anything to reduce the potentail awkwardness of such a situation?
:'''<walterbender>''' Other than a few details: a server, triage in on important area, it is about support and coordination that we are interested in help.
:cwhii is now known as cwhii_
:'''<walterbender>''' @caroline: we cannot get in the middle of the hardware discussions... we would need to build a wholly different organization.
:'''<walterbender>''' What we can do is make sure Sugar is the right choice regardless of what decision is reached.
:'''<tomeu>''' or work together with the organizations that decide the hw, so sugar runs well there
:'''| befana (n=befana@190.158.124.131) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<tomeu>''' in case we cannot make sugar run well everywhere ;)
:'''<walterbender>''' back to OLPC for a moment...
:'''<walterbender>''' Ed: is there still a support gang at OLPC?
:'''<bernie>''' befana: aren't you a member of the support gang?
:'''<walterbender>''' whether there is or not in the long run, we should work on a way to coordinate efforts...
:'''<bernie>''' in many companies, the point of contact between support and R&D is the bug tracker
:'''<dirakx>''' the gang is still ongoing ;)
:'''<bernie>''' they can file requests there
:'''<befana>''' bernie: hi, i'm not
:'''<bernie>''' btw, in the absence of a PM, do we want/need a bugmaster who would prioritize bugs, assign them, etc?
:'''<gregdek>''' I expect that we're going to have to do some of that in the engineering meetings.
:'''<walterbender>''' So we need to make sure that the RT system remains intact and ideally is in service of OLPC, OLPC deployments, Sugar, and Sugar deployments as they begin to diverge...
:'''<gregdek>''' In my limited time, as we near release, that's probably what I'll spend most of my time doing.
:'''<walterbender>''' this is what Pia has been thinking about.
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: that would the bugsquad erikos has been working on
:'''| erikos (n=erikos@e178222092.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: yes, our trac will soon start to bitrot without some love
:'''<gregdek>''' Engineering meetings at release time should be: "which bugs are hot, and what's our status on them?"
:'''<gregdek>''' But honestly, it's a full-time job.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: but we cannot deal with many bugs in a meeting
:'' walterbender aaaaargh. too many windows open
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: You'd be surprised how many bugs you can discuss in a two-hour meeting.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: a team of people could work together async with a bugtracker
:'''<gregdek>''' True.
:'''<tomeu>''' I remember the triaging sessions at olpc
:'''<gregdek>''' We probably need to do both.
:'''<walterbender>''' OK. We need to stay focused.
:'''<walterbender>''' What else should be part of the "ask" from OLPC?
:'''<walterbender>''' Can I gist from your discussion that we need a concrete plan for coordinating bugtracking as well as for RT?
:'''<gregdek>''' We have one, of sorts, but we should tighten it up.
:'''<walterbender>''' gregdek: can you point us at where it is written down?
:'''<gregdek>''' i.e. we have agreement that Sugar bugs that end up in OLPC trac will be placed into Sugar Trac, and then closed in the OLPC trac with an id pointing to the Sugar trac id.
:'''<gregdek>''' It's in email right now. We can get it into engineering docs somewhere.
:'''<walterbender>''' And a reciprocity?
:'''| eric_the_sad (n=joe@joenet.demon.co.uk) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<walterbender>''' We'll send them OLPC bugs?
:'''<gregdek>''' i.e. Sugar bugs that are actually OLPC-related will be moved to olpc trac in the same way?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: a server for pootle and builds would be nice
:'''<gregdek>''' Make sense t ome.
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, we have some bugs in dev.s.o that are XO specific
:'''<walterbender>''' What about Fedora bugs?
:'''<gregdek>''' We didn't discuss it, actually, but it certainly makes sense.
:'''<dirakx>''' Q: we would need also to separate SL's RT from OLPC's RT ?
:'''<gregdek>''' The actual policy is simple. It's moving the bugs that's expensive.
:'''| hpachas-PE (n=hpachas@200.37.120.18) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<bernie>''' we need to add an xmlrpc plugin on both tracs to make moving bugs possible
:'''<bernie>''' I was counting on coderanger to help me with that
:'''<walterbender>''' dirakx: I think we'd want a similar mechanism for RT, but as I understand it, what Pia proposed is one point of entry...
:'''<dirakx>''' walterbender: ok.
:'''<tomeu>''' Sugar lives in a certain part of the complete software stack, I guess we shouldn't have open bugs in the Sugar trac that lie in other parts of the stack? like those battery bugs we have now?
:'''<walterbender>''' and then the tickets get distributed to the various concerned parties.
:'''<walterbender>''' but I guess what I am asking of OLPC is if they are in agreement with such schemas and what resources they'd be able to bring to the table.
:'''<gregdek>''' To be clear: Fedora, Ubuntu, and GNOME all have tons of issues keeping track of these kinds of problems.
:'''<tomeu>''' I understand RT as closer to the user than trac, if SL isn't going to be in the business of directly deploying, why should it have an RT instance?
:'''<tomeu>''' why not deployers move tickets from their RTs to our trac?
:'''<gregdek>''' So we can state a simple policy -- "always move bugs to the proper upstream" -- but that policy will get messy very quickly.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' (sorry, got interrupted - I'm catching up)
:'''<dirakx>''' tomeu: that seems plausible.
:'''<shenki>''' tomeu: +1, i never understood rt from a developers point of view
:'''<walterbender>''' I think Tomeu's proposal makes sense for Sugar, but perhaps not for Activities?
:'''<walterbender>''' Activities are what end users interactive with...
:'''<tomeu>''' hmm
:'''<walterbender>''' But if there are good people manning the RT systems, it would probably work.
:'''<walterbender>''' So SL would be trac only and we'd have a good outreach to the various RT/support teams
:'''<walterbender>''' including whatever OLPC and the OLPC deployments use...
:'''<tomeu>''' I guess RT places a focus on tickets being properly followed so the user is happy because sees their issues being addressed, while trac or bugzilla try rather that developers are happy by knowing that their software is less buggy
:'''<gregdek>''' RT is about customer service.
:'''<tomeu>''' ideally there would be a single system that achieves both, but in practice that's not feasible
:'''<gregdek>''' I agree: SL should be trac-only.
:'''<dirakx>''' other way could be creating a sugar category on OLPC's RT..and having the SG's resolving the issues there.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' tomeu: That seems to be my impression, too.
:'''<tomeu>''' SGs?
:'''<tomeu>''' oh, support gang
:'''<dirakx>''' tomeu: ;)
:'''<walterbender>''' One way or another, someone has to ensure that there is a support gang (SG) out there
:'''<walterbender>''' and that someone is manning an RT system.
:'''<tomeu>''' right
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I can help install RT on one of our machines, but only if there is a real group of support people behind it
:'''<walterbender>''' So back to the question of what OLPC's plans are in that regard?
:'''<bernie>''' I personally think end-user support is better done locally in the field
:'''<walterbender>''' bernie: the way that the conversation is heading, not sure that this is SL server issue...
:'''<bernie>''' also because of language and cultural barriers
:'''<walterbender>''' But if the deployments cannot do it on their own, we could pitch in to help...
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: We don't have any plans to switch from using trac for bug-management and RT for "service" issues.
:'''<walterbender>''' So there are plans to maintain the RT system and the support gang?
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: I think we have a reasonable understanding in place on how to manage trac bugs moving to SL and vice-versa, we'll just need to keep an eye on how it plays out in practice.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Yes, no change there. SG has continued to be active and meeting regularly, and RT's in use for a number of things here and won't change.
:'''<walterbender>''' that is very good news.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' Just got a "welcome" email for a new support-gang volunteer from yesterday :)
:'''<walterbender>''' Shall we move on to the next topic then?
:'''<walterbender>''' (I'll try to summarize the discuss into an email to Chuck and Ed)
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Thanks - that would be a big help.
:'''<walterbender>''' (3) slobs email controversy?
:'''<walterbender>''' I have to admit I am not quite sure what the controversy is, but there is an impression of a lack of transparency from slobs...
:'''<gregdek>''' There is always that impression, and you have to fight it tooth and nail.
:'''<bernie>''' the government is always bad
:'''<gregdek>''' :_
:'''<gregdek>''' :)
:'''<gregdek>''' Are there specific complaints we can address?
:'''<dirakx>''' i don't see the lack of transparency..but i would like to see the ”thread” ;).
:'''<tomeu>''' btw, I had a similar discussion in #sugar about it just before the SugarCamp
:'''<walterbender>''' I didn't hear back from Michael yet about my suggestion that he monitor slobs mail for things that should be public...
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: the specific issue was brought up by m_stone, who seems to be afk now
:'''<walterbender>''' but having someone who's job it is to ensure we are as transparent as possible seems a good thing...
:'''<tomeu>''' some people feel trouble in getting integrated into SLs, and I don't see how we can improve there
:'''<gregdek>''' Is this an issue from anyone other than m_stone?
:'''<bernie>''' dirakx: we're missing dfarning's consent before we can "declassify" it :-)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: ivan pointed out that the thread happened out of the slobs ml
:'''<dirakx>''' bernie: ok.np.
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, dfarning said he would be away the weekend and part of the week
:'''<tomeu>''' but he seems to be occasional email access
:'''<tomeu>''' s/be/have
:'''<walterbender>''' I agree with dfarning regarding the merit of discussing some ideas with peers before entering into a public discussion: I am a big believer in editing.
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: cjb also said he was mad for that, but he might have been joking
:'''<gregdek>''' My quick take: (1) slobs ml archive should be open unless there's a compelling reason not to open it; (2) slobs ml should be invite-only even if the archive is available.
:'''<tomeu>''' something related, anybody has already thought about declassifying a month worth of slobs mail after some months/years?
:'''<gregdek>''' Limited, but transparent.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: but where we'll discuss issues that involve partners that demand privacy?
:'''<tomeu>''' I thought that was the only purpose of the slobs ml
:'''<walterbender>''' The reason for a private list is to have a place to discuss things that others have asked us to keep private.
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: good point.
:'''<tomeu>''' not of the slobs in itself, just the ml
:'''<walterbender>''' I don't think we ever (purposefully) discuss SL business in private.
:'''<tomeu>''' slobs issues that don't demand privacy should be discussed in iaep
:'''<gregdek>''' walterbender: But everyone assumes that you do.
:'''<walterbender>''' that is why I'd like a 3rd party to monitor the list...
:'''<gregdek>''' The existence of a private email list *always* makes people assume that you are discussing Serious Business there.
:'''<walterbender>''' some 3rd party business is serious
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: we publish all our code so people can check that we don't have time to discuss stuff in private :p
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: ideally, one of the observers should be doing the name blanketing
:'''<tomeu>''' ok, then +1 to have a transparency cop in the slobs ml
:'''<gregdek>''' Make m_stone that guy.
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe that is all we can do at the moment...
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: also, michael came in at an extraordinary time where 12 emails were sent the same day. usually it's 2-3 per day.
:'''<walterbender>''' I've asked him.
:'''<shenki>''' the results of these kinds of discussions come out in the weekly news, right?
:'''<gregdek>''' Good. :)
:'''<walterbender>''' shenki: yes
:'''<walterbender>''' next topic then?
:'''<bernie>''' shenki: not always, especially negotiations with hw companies
:'''<walterbender>''' (4) FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' shenki: oh, you mean the present discussion? yes
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: well, but those discussions must go public at some point
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: or they fail
:'''<shenki>''' bernie: i ment in general
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: yes
:'''<bernie>''' ok next topic
:'''<shenki>''' yep
:'''<walterbender>''' When they don't go public, it is an example of a failure.
:'''<tomeu>''' we are going to have much bigger activity in this year's fosdem
:'''<bernie>''' We're gathering on Friday for a pre-meeting in a hacker room kindly offered by the FOSDEM organizers
:'''<walterbender>''' lots of important meetings of the mind there too
:'''<bernie>''' http://hsb.wikidot.com/
:'''<walterbender>''' Can we plan to keep an IRC channel open during the meetings?
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek, bernie, ChristophD: anything will happen in fosdem that is not here? http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Events/FOSDEM_2009
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: the problem we have about that right now is that we only have one meeting with time assigned and none with an agenda
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, not anything that I'm aware of ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: I'm going to send reminders today
:'''<walterbender>''' we should schedule the unofficial events too, such as the code sprint with Rob Savoye
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, rob also needs to say what time works for him
:'''<walterbender>''' when we get meeting times nailed down, it would be good to send a heads up.
:'' erikos will meet with sdzillas to talk about SoaS
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: I will review and add anything necessary.
:'''<gregdek>''' erikos: Great!
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: yes. we'll get drunk on friday night
:'''<ChristophD>''' gregdek, will you join us on Friday?
:'''<gregdek>''' ChristophD: Unclear. I'm spending part of the day in an open source education conference with Mozilla.
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: who's sdzilla?
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sebastian dzillas
:'''<bernie>''' or what is it?
:'''<ChristophD>''' gregdek, ah, okay, well, that shall be interesting as well!
:'''<gregdek>''' bernie: Fedora volunteer who is maintaining a Sugar spin for Fedora that is *very* similar to SoaS.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sebastian dziallas
:'''<gregdek>''' Looking to cut down on duplication of effort, I presume.
:'''<walterbender>''' yeah. sebastian has brought up a lot of interesting strategic points we should discuss.
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: we *must* throw SoaS on his shoulders
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yup - he offered kindly some help and we wish to coordinate a bit
:'''<bernie>''' :)
:'''<gregdek>''' Yep. :)
:'''<gregdek>''' He's a 17 year old kid with huge enthusiasm and capacity.
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: will he need access to SLs infrastructure?
:'''<bernie>''' one issue dfarning brought up in the sekret thread was that we're dispersing too much energy in supporting disparate distros.
:'''<walterbender>''' there is a plan to have a SoaS stand somewhere?
:'''<bernie>''' developers should develop
:'''<erikos>''' gregdek: oh wow - awesome
:'''<gregdek>''' walterbender: We will be making SoaS on demand at the Fedora booth.
:'''<walterbender>''' I gather someone will be handing out USB keys at the meeting...
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sure, i think there is always a long term and short term goal
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: we just help to get the ball rolling
:'''<walterbender>''' gregdek: great
:'''<gregdek>''' "Bring your USB key, get SoaS!"
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: sure, now it is maybe the time to spend some energies to widen our user base.
:'''<caroline>''' when you see companies giving out USB sticks see if they want to give us some to give to kids.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yes - and i really think soas is a good tool for that
:'''<bernie>''' if we keep in mind we should hand off these things to local maintainers so we don't stay busy with the packaging and distro work
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sure
:'''<walterbender>''' If and when we have some money, we can make branded sticks (2 gig) for ~$5-10 depending on quantity
:'''<caroline>''' You should have lollipops at the booth too :)
:'''<walterbender>''' 2 color printing.
:'''<bernie>''' caroline: indeed
:'''<walterbender>''' And I am still chasing after Belkin
:'''<bernie>''' mchua is printing business cards
:'''<bernie>''' she's sweet
:'''<tomeu>''' btw, we may need to start thinking about our presence in the next conferences, etc
:'''<ChristophD>''' walterbender, excellent idea selling the SugarLabs SoaS sticks!
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, mchua will be at FOSDEM???
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: no :-(
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: but her soul will be
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: oh right - does she need some details from us?
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, hehe, okay... too bad she wont be there!
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: andriani will get us business cards designed, organized and paid for by mel
:'''<caroline>''' where in the world is Mel today?
:'''<erikos>''' zzz i guess
:'''<bernie>''' I thought boston?
:'''<bernie>''' jetlagged?
:'''<erikos>''' i guess so
:'''<walterbender>''' Anything else re FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' do we have more companies to approach?
:'''<bernie>''' collabora will be there too
:'''<bernie>''' of course
:'''<walterbender>''' Any and all hardware folks who will be there... and distros, and the edu spins
:'''<bernie>''' I have a meeting with a TI guy
:'''<bernie>''' they have a nice ARM laptop, apparently
:'''<bernie>''' sorry, I never mentioned before... you know, it's a cabal
:'''<tomeu>''' as long as you don't disclose your talks with microsoft, we are good
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, I wanna see that laptop as I'm very excited about the low-cost ARM netbooks!
:'''<walterbender>''' there are a lot of new laptops coming out: gdium and the one from India...
:'''<tomeu>''' the mobilis I guess, not the $10 one :p
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: yeah, it's very likely that the future of the industry is arm-only
:'''<walterbender>''' don't discount mips
:'''<ChristophD>''' good point
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, mips is cheaply done in china
:'''<ChristophD>''' but I think for 2009-2010 ARM will be kind, esp. in Europe and North America
:'''<walterbender>''' and italy
:'''<bernie>''' do we meet with anyone from mandriva?
:'''<bernie>''' and opensuse?
:'''<bernie>''' opensuse is also strong on some netbooks
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: although alsroot is doing nice work on sugar on mandriva 2009.1, we don't know yet how sugar can get into the mandriva versions that run on arm and mips
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:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: mandriva standard doesn't build for those architectures, they seem to have something internal
:'''<walterbender>''' tomeu: I think the gdium team may have some ideas there...
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:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: so would be good to keep them in sync
:'''<bernie>''' the openmoko guys will be there -- naa, I don't think we care
:'''<walterbender>''' they will be at FOSDEM
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, they must know about mandriva+mips
:'''<ChristophD>''' could someone take http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Events/FOSDEM_2009#Goals_.7C_Community_Meetup and turn it into a real agenda with attached schedule so we dont go off on a tangent?
:'''<walterbender>''' apparently they have many improvements over the core
:'''<walterbender>''' one theme I think a lot of people are interested in is how to integrate their widgets with Sugar
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: I guess we have lots to discuss about that, I'm not sure what that would mean right now
:'''<walterbender>''' me neither.
:'''<walterbender>''' but a lot of h'ware folks do some unique things to give them some differentiation...
:'''<walterbender>''' how that would integrate with Sugar is important.
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: will think of some proposals there
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, thanks :)
:'''<bernie>''' what hw do we expose at the booth?
:'''<walterbender>''' hopefully some concrete discussions will happen at FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' I have an EEE-PC, and an XO
:'''<ChristophD>''' classmate
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: do we have a booth? ;)
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, what about the Beagle board?
:'''<walterbender>''' All that we can...
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: do you have soas running on it already?
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: nubae also has one apparently
:'''<walterbender>''' I printed a big Sugar Labs banner I used at LCA.
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: yes I was planning to get it there
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, nubae has aaron's classmate
:'''<walterbender>''' Anyone going to FOSDEM from Boston?
:'''<bernie>''' but it requires a display
:'''<ChristophD>''' and I think its currently a vanilla ubuntu install with sugar on top of it
:'''<bernie>''' who could bring an LCD panel?
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, you are the ones going by car ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: maybe gregdek knows someone from RH who travels there from boston?
:'''<bernie>''' Oh, btw: robsavoye will be there too. we'd like to hack together a gnash activity
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: Nope.
:'''<gregdek>''' Maybe just shout out to the list?
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: not any more. we were 6, costs went up... and planes were €10...
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: have some ideas about that
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: cool, it shouldn't be hard with bertf's wrapper script
:'''<caroline>''' there was a gnash developer at the olpc-[hilippines meeting
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: or with proper fallbacks in sugar for native applications
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, ah, okay, when will you be arriving at BRU?
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: oh, I thought we were going to be a bit ambitious, but let's talk about it in #sugar
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: thursday evening
:'''<ChristophD>''' okay, great
:'''<tomeu>''' caroline: do you know if that gnash dev in in sugar-devel?
:'''<tomeu>''' s/in/is
:'''<caroline>''' no clue sorry
:'''<walterbender>''' anything else abut FOSDEM to discuss here?
:'''<walterbender>''' we should talk about (5) Finances as we are getting late
:'''<walterbender>''' We have a little money and a few expenses...
:'''<walterbender>''' I have a big stack of grant rejections...
:'''<walterbender>''' and a few more birds in the bush...
:'''<walterbender>''' I need some help identifying opportunities
:'''<bernie>''' I've just exchanged a few words with rob.
:'''<bernie>''' he'll be in brussels friday evening, too late for the hack room.
:'''<walterbender>''' particularly outside of the US usual gang of suspects
:'''<walterbender>''' bernie: whereas you added finances to the agenda, anything you wanted to discuss?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: OSL did a lot of good work for us. I was thinking of rewarding them with a small donation
:'''<bernie>''' some $200-300 just to show our gratitude
:'''<bernie>''' they have discretely asked for donations to the lab a few times
:'''<bernie>''' then, the FSF still isn't asking us money
:'''<bernie>''' but they should :-)
:'''<bernie>''' their server has been in production for a while now
:'''<bernie>''' GA
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe a token gesture to OSL until we have surer footing...
:'''<walterbender>''' I don't want us in a position where we are operating in the red...
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe a more detailed financial report from dfarning next week?
:'''<walterbender>''' with a budget?
:'''<walterbender>''' then we would be in a better position to make decisions.
:'''<bernie>''' ok
:'''<tomeu>''' we don't have the meetingbot on to record AI?
:'''<bernie>''' no hurry
:'''<bernie>''' crap we forgot
:'''<walterbender>''' I'll just trasnscribe by hand
:'''<tomeu>''' so, what else before we can get back to code?
:'''<walterbender>''' final topic: 0.84?
:'''<walterbender>''' Erikos: can yo give a quick update?
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: so we hope to get a god understanding what is broken what needs fixed
:'''<erikos>''' and how the new design changes work out
:'''<erikos>''' with the testing we get from the soas
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: so i don't think we are to bad
:'''<tomeu>''' we don't know if we are too bad :p
:'''<erikos>''' tomeu: yeah ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' so we need more testing
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: the main issue in general is distraction
:'''<bernie>''' I did some informal testing
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: from the actual coding
:'''<erikos>''' tomeu: yup
:'''<bernie>''' on the EEE, we have a few problems with the smaller display size
:'''<tomeu>''' but have enough tickets to fix right now
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: cool
:'''<bernie>''' and supposedly the classmate will be the same
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yes - this is one item that needs to be addressed
:'''<walterbender>''' How can we make sure that the various testing teams (e.g., Wellington) try the new code?
:'''<bernie>''' on F11, we have a few dead activities due to 2.5 ->''' 2.6
:'''<walterbender>''' are they listed in the wiki?
:'''<bernie>''' apart from this, 0.83 looks very polished to me
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: that is ok i presume - we only want to have the fructose ones packaged
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: that i did already
:'''<bernie>''' joyride does not seem to boot on my xo
:'''<bernie>''' is it broken?
:'''<--| eric_the_sad has left #sugar-meeting
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: don't worry about joyride
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: announce the soas on the list and on the blog
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: i want to have a FOSDEM spin
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: with the latest fixes in
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: then it's ok
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: that we cna announce widely again
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: turtleart also has issues with the eee display
:'''<walterbender>''' yes... tell me exactly what to announce.
:'''<walterbender>''' @bernie: which version?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: what went on SoaS?
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: also, what resolution?
:'''<walterbender>''' from the activity dev. POV, it is really hard to test everything everywhere
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: that is the latest working one http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=332
:'''<walterbender>''' and old builds too.
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: i will update you with newer versions
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: I have a disruptive proposal: why don't we change the default screen size of sugar-emulator to the same of the EEEPC for a while?
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: so developers see these bugs on their computers
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: you can set screen size for the emulator easily
:'''<walterbender>''' I run jhbuild at various resolutions...
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: yeah, but who does? :)
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: -i
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: -1?
:'''<bernie>''' ah!
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: heh
:'''<walterbender>''' but for instance, making sure an activity still runs on 656 or 703 or even 767?
:'''<walterbender>''' and making sure it runs on Fedora and Debian...
:'''<walterbender>''' it is difficult.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: i am ok - to change the default - but maybe more 1024x748
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: I mean, it's a psychological trick to shake bugs easily. the weirdest and more restrictive the default, the better
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: ok with me - tomeu?
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: ok for 1024x768, it also fits better in people's displays
:'''<walterbender>''' One other thing to keep in mind is that there are scaling issues in Pango between the XO and other displays...
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yeah 768 i meant ;p
:'''<walterbender>''' I had to introduce a scaling factor in TAPortfolio because the fonts will all wrong on the XO
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: oh yes. dpi really need some work. I asked unmadindu to have a look if he has time
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: yeah :/
:'''<tomeu>''' fine with me, but won't other users feel bugged by that
:'''<tomeu>''' ?
:'''<walterbender>''' I think it is an XO-spefici issue...
:'''<bernie>''' we should also have a smaller cursor for lower DPI displays
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: it may be a high resolution issue, so would be present in other machines
:'''<walterbender>''' Is there a page in the wiki with the list things to look for in making an activity cross-platform?
:'''<tomeu>''' benzea has some ideas about that, need to talk with him
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: don't think so
:'''<walterbender>''' For example, I discovered that the reason TA wouldn't launch in 703 was that I was checking the version number of the activity, which is not an environment variable set in 703... I had to add an exception
:'''<walterbender>''' Erikos, if you tell me where to put the page, I'll start adding the gotchas I have encountered...
:'' unmadindu plans on looking at gnome-settings daemon to figure out dpi stuff.
:'' unmadindu has chewed g-s-d before
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: perhaps inside the ActivityTeam wiki area?
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: sorry, which page?
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: that would be awesome
:'''<walterbender>''' tomeu: +1
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: what version works with which release?
:'''<unmadindu>''' I think it uses xsettings for handling dpi stuff, but I'll have to check
:'''<walterbender>''' erikos: a page for activity developers to consult re cross platform and corss version compatibility
:'''<walterbender>''' (and testing tips)
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: I think it uses the value that gets set in the gnome "appearance" control panel
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: oh ok - yeah i agree with toeu to put it in the ActivityTeam namespace
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: not sure if it lives in xsettings or in gconf
:'''<bernie>''' we degenerated into heavily technical discussion for a slobs meeting, but I like it
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe we bring the meeting to a close and move back to #sugar?
:'''<erikos>''' yup sounds good
:'''<walterbender>''' OK. See you on #sugar
:'''<erikos>''' thanks
:'''<walterbender>''' meeting adjourned
:'''<ChristophD>''' Isnt this cross-platform compatibility issue something that should also be considered for the Remora project?
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: yeah, remora already allows us to tag a bundle with a sugar version and a platform
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: I don't think that we have any portability issue''' that mozilla don't have as well in their addons
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, ah, good to know, thanks :)
:'''<marcopg>''' duh adjourned just now that I'm arrived!
:'''<walterbender>''' Marco is at the dentist.
:'''<walterbender>''' Does anyone know if Dfarning will be joining us?
:'''<bernie>''' where's dfarning?
:'''<tomeu>''' he was taking some time off, right?
:'''<tomeu>''' not sure if he's back or not
:'''<walterbender>''' yeah
:'''<walterbender>''' how about cjb?
:'''<gregdek>''' What, is Marco getting every tooth pulled? Every time I turn around, he's at the dentist.
:'''<walterbender>''' too mcuh sugar in his life
:'''<tomeu>''' clearly
:'''<walterbender>''' I would like to focus on a few issues today:
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I "called" him
:'''<walterbender>''' (1) status of the new release
:'''<bernie>''' mchua|zzz: zzz?
:'''<walterbender>''' (2) what we want to ask of OLPC going forward
:'''<walterbender>''' (3) the slobs email controversy and community relations in general
:'''<walterbender>''' (4) FOSDEM
:'''<walterbender>''' (5) finances and prospects
:'''<walterbender>''' Anything else on people's minds?
:'''<walterbender>''' Well, chime in as we get going.
:'''<tomeu>''' nope
:'''<walterbender>''' Is erikos here?
:'''<bernie>''' nope
:'''<tomeu>''' haven't seen him today
:'' gregdek is lurking while he handles flight details on phone.
:'''<tomeu>''' about the new release, I'm a bit concerned that we are landing big user experience changes and I'm not sure we have gotten enough feedback
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe we should leave #1 to the end then in case he shows up (and marco may be able to join us towards the end as welll)
:'''<tomeu>''' makes sense
:'''<walterbender>''' Topic: OLPC
:'''<walterbender>''' I spoke with Chuck and Ed after the OLPC announcement and they asked me to make a proposal from SL about what we would want from them going forward...
:'''<walterbender>''' A few ideas have been floated: a server (bernie), support for a few important changes to Write (gregdek),
:'''<tomeu>''' hmm, what OLPC needs that we can help with?
:'''<walterbender>''' clarity about who is still at OLPC and with whom we should be interfacing (walter)
:'''<gregdek>''' (specifically, solving the collaboration crash issues in Write)
:'''<walterbender>''' also, some clarity around support and RT
:'''<walterbender>''' For example, it is still not clear to me if there is still a support gang at OLPC
:'''<walterbender>''' and testing...
:'''<walterbender>''' anything else we should ask them for?
:'''<tomeu>''' from NN's announcement, I have trouble making myself an idea of what OLPC cares about now
:'''<tomeu>''' so I don't really know what we can ask them that makes sense to them
:'''<gregdek>''' Maybe we should be talking to Adam Holt directly about Support Gang?
:'''<gregdek>''' If anyone will know, he will.
:'''<ChristophD>''' the support gang is still very active at OLPC - at the moment that is but who knows for how much longer
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek++
:'''<walterbender>''' It is a bit strange... on the one hand, they have said some very positive things about Sugar; on the other, still talk about how we are about of fundamentalist, shooting ourselves in the foot...
:'''<walterbender>''' but the bottom line is that theya re still our biggest deployment and we should help them any way we can
:'''<caroline>''' General coordination of incoming volunteers
:'''<walterbender>''' I think that OLPC would like to feed their volunteers to us...
:'''<caroline>''' yes, I think so too.
:'''<walterbender>''' should we ask them to fund a volunteer coordinator at SL?
:'''<gregdek>''' Is that the impression you get?
:'''<tomeu>''' but is OLPC a deployment? or deployments are uruguay, nepal, peru, etc?
:'''<gregdek>''' Have they actually *said* that?
:'''<walterbender>''' Yes. In so many words.
:'''<walterbender>''' They have a lot of universities pledging people...
:'''<gregdek>''' Then yes, we should ask them to fund a volunteer coordinator.
:'''<walterbender>''' and need help coordinating them.
:'''<tomeu>''' lots of work to do in that area
:'''<walterbender>''' So we are prepared to take the step of hiring prof. management...
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: what about the PM who was going to join us some time ago?
:'''<tomeu>''' prime minister?
:'''<walterbender>''' Bernie: please refresh my memory...
:'''<walterbender>''' I have a small cache and no diskspace
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I don't think he wanted his name to go public yet
:'''<bernie>''' now they will accuse us of conspiracy :-/
:''edmcnierney tunes in due to request from bernie - hi there.''
:'''<walterbender>''' no need for a name, but the idea?
:'''<walterbender>''' hi ed... timely entry
:'''<edmcnierney>''' I think I'm just reiterating walterbender's point that Chuck and I would like to hear a proposal on SL support from OLPC.
:'''| unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<walterbender>''' We haven't had a chance to gather as a group for a while, hence our delay getting back to you.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' That's definitely something we're still interested in doing, but it would really help to get a coordinated, comprehensive proposal rather than an assortment of individual requests.
:'''<walterbender>''' +1
:'''<tomeu>''' what means "SL support" here?
:'''<walterbender>''' That is why we are discussing it here--to get everyone's ideas on the table.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Yes, I realize you've been busy :)
:'''<bernie>''' yeah, coding
:'''<walterbender>''' edmcnierney: do you have the log from the last 10 minutes?
:'''<edmcnierney>''' yes
:'''| cwhii (n=cwhii@adsl-69-227-95-58.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<caroline>''' I think we are goign to be in a situation where prospective deployments are decidign between XOs, netbooks of various brands and SoaS. Can we do anything to reduce the potentail awkwardness of such a situation?
:'''<walterbender>''' Other than a few details: a server, triage in on important area, it is about support and coordination that we are interested in help.
:cwhii is now known as cwhii_
:'''<walterbender>''' @caroline: we cannot get in the middle of the hardware discussions... we would need to build a wholly different organization.
:'''<walterbender>''' What we can do is make sure Sugar is the right choice regardless of what decision is reached.
:'''<tomeu>''' or work together with the organizations that decide the hw, so sugar runs well there
:'''| befana (n=befana@190.158.124.131) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<tomeu>''' in case we cannot make sugar run well everywhere ;)
:'''<walterbender>''' back to OLPC for a moment...
:'''<walterbender>''' Ed: is there still a support gang at OLPC?
:'''<bernie>''' befana: aren't you a member of the support gang?
:'''<walterbender>''' whether there is or not in the long run, we should work on a way to coordinate efforts...
:'''<bernie>''' in many companies, the point of contact between support and R&D is the bug tracker
:'''<dirakx>''' the gang is still ongoing ;)
:'''<bernie>''' they can file requests there
:'''<befana>''' bernie: hi, i'm not
:'''<bernie>''' btw, in the absence of a PM, do we want/need a bugmaster who would prioritize bugs, assign them, etc?
:'''<gregdek>''' I expect that we're going to have to do some of that in the engineering meetings.
:'''<walterbender>''' So we need to make sure that the RT system remains intact and ideally is in service of OLPC, OLPC deployments, Sugar, and Sugar deployments as they begin to diverge...
:'''<gregdek>''' In my limited time, as we near release, that's probably what I'll spend most of my time doing.
:'''<walterbender>''' this is what Pia has been thinking about.
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: that would the bugsquad erikos has been working on
:'''| erikos (n=erikos@e178222092.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: yes, our trac will soon start to bitrot without some love
:'''<gregdek>''' Engineering meetings at release time should be: "which bugs are hot, and what's our status on them?"
:'''<gregdek>''' But honestly, it's a full-time job.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: but we cannot deal with many bugs in a meeting
:'' walterbender aaaaargh. too many windows open
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: You'd be surprised how many bugs you can discuss in a two-hour meeting.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: a team of people could work together async with a bugtracker
:'''<gregdek>''' True.
:'''<tomeu>''' I remember the triaging sessions at olpc
:'''<gregdek>''' We probably need to do both.
:'''<walterbender>''' OK. We need to stay focused.
:'''<walterbender>''' What else should be part of the "ask" from OLPC?
:'''<walterbender>''' Can I gist from your discussion that we need a concrete plan for coordinating bugtracking as well as for RT?
:'''<gregdek>''' We have one, of sorts, but we should tighten it up.
:'''<walterbender>''' gregdek: can you point us at where it is written down?
:'''<gregdek>''' i.e. we have agreement that Sugar bugs that end up in OLPC trac will be placed into Sugar Trac, and then closed in the OLPC trac with an id pointing to the Sugar trac id.
:'''<gregdek>''' It's in email right now. We can get it into engineering docs somewhere.
:'''<walterbender>''' And a reciprocity?
:'''| eric_the_sad (n=joe@joenet.demon.co.uk) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<walterbender>''' We'll send them OLPC bugs?
:'''<gregdek>''' i.e. Sugar bugs that are actually OLPC-related will be moved to olpc trac in the same way?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: a server for pootle and builds would be nice
:'''<gregdek>''' Make sense t ome.
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, we have some bugs in dev.s.o that are XO specific
:'''<walterbender>''' What about Fedora bugs?
:'''<gregdek>''' We didn't discuss it, actually, but it certainly makes sense.
:'''<dirakx>''' Q: we would need also to separate SL's RT from OLPC's RT ?
:'''<gregdek>''' The actual policy is simple. It's moving the bugs that's expensive.
:'''| hpachas-PE (n=hpachas@200.37.120.18) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<bernie>''' we need to add an xmlrpc plugin on both tracs to make moving bugs possible
:'''<bernie>''' I was counting on coderanger to help me with that
:'''<walterbender>''' dirakx: I think we'd want a similar mechanism for RT, but as I understand it, what Pia proposed is one point of entry...
:'''<dirakx>''' walterbender: ok.
:'''<tomeu>''' Sugar lives in a certain part of the complete software stack, I guess we shouldn't have open bugs in the Sugar trac that lie in other parts of the stack? like those battery bugs we have now?
:'''<walterbender>''' and then the tickets get distributed to the various concerned parties.
:'''<walterbender>''' but I guess what I am asking of OLPC is if they are in agreement with such schemas and what resources they'd be able to bring to the table.
:'''<gregdek>''' To be clear: Fedora, Ubuntu, and GNOME all have tons of issues keeping track of these kinds of problems.
:'''<tomeu>''' I understand RT as closer to the user than trac, if SL isn't going to be in the business of directly deploying, why should it have an RT instance?
:'''<tomeu>''' why not deployers move tickets from their RTs to our trac?
:'''<gregdek>''' So we can state a simple policy -- "always move bugs to the proper upstream" -- but that policy will get messy very quickly.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' (sorry, got interrupted - I'm catching up)
:'''<dirakx>''' tomeu: that seems plausible.
:'''<shenki>''' tomeu: +1, i never understood rt from a developers point of view
:'''<walterbender>''' I think Tomeu's proposal makes sense for Sugar, but perhaps not for Activities?
:'''<walterbender>''' Activities are what end users interactive with...
:'''<tomeu>''' hmm
:'''<walterbender>''' But if there are good people manning the RT systems, it would probably work.
:'''<walterbender>''' So SL would be trac only and we'd have a good outreach to the various RT/support teams
:'''<walterbender>''' including whatever OLPC and the OLPC deployments use...
:'''<tomeu>''' I guess RT places a focus on tickets being properly followed so the user is happy because sees their issues being addressed, while trac or bugzilla try rather that developers are happy by knowing that their software is less buggy
:'''<gregdek>''' RT is about customer service.
:'''<tomeu>''' ideally there would be a single system that achieves both, but in practice that's not feasible
:'''<gregdek>''' I agree: SL should be trac-only.
:'''<dirakx>''' other way could be creating a sugar category on OLPC's RT..and having the SG's resolving the issues there.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' tomeu: That seems to be my impression, too.
:'''<tomeu>''' SGs?
:'''<tomeu>''' oh, support gang
:'''<dirakx>''' tomeu: ;)
:'''<walterbender>''' One way or another, someone has to ensure that there is a support gang (SG) out there
:'''<walterbender>''' and that someone is manning an RT system.
:'''<tomeu>''' right
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: I can help install RT on one of our machines, but only if there is a real group of support people behind it
:'''<walterbender>''' So back to the question of what OLPC's plans are in that regard?
:'''<bernie>''' I personally think end-user support is better done locally in the field
:'''<walterbender>''' bernie: the way that the conversation is heading, not sure that this is SL server issue...
:'''<bernie>''' also because of language and cultural barriers
:'''<walterbender>''' But if the deployments cannot do it on their own, we could pitch in to help...
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: We don't have any plans to switch from using trac for bug-management and RT for "service" issues.
:'''<walterbender>''' So there are plans to maintain the RT system and the support gang?
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: I think we have a reasonable understanding in place on how to manage trac bugs moving to SL and vice-versa, we'll just need to keep an eye on how it plays out in practice.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Yes, no change there. SG has continued to be active and meeting regularly, and RT's in use for a number of things here and won't change.
:'''<walterbender>''' that is very good news.
:'''<edmcnierney>''' Just got a "welcome" email for a new support-gang volunteer from yesterday :)
:'''<walterbender>''' Shall we move on to the next topic then?
:'''<walterbender>''' (I'll try to summarize the discuss into an email to Chuck and Ed)
:'''<edmcnierney>''' walterbender: Thanks - that would be a big help.
:'''<walterbender>''' (3) slobs email controversy?
:'''<walterbender>''' I have to admit I am not quite sure what the controversy is, but there is an impression of a lack of transparency from slobs...
:'''<gregdek>''' There is always that impression, and you have to fight it tooth and nail.
:'''<bernie>''' the government is always bad
:'''<gregdek>''' :_
:'''<gregdek>''' :)
:'''<gregdek>''' Are there specific complaints we can address?
:'''<dirakx>''' i don't see the lack of transparency..but i would like to see the ”thread” ;).
:'''<tomeu>''' btw, I had a similar discussion in #sugar about it just before the SugarCamp
:'''<walterbender>''' I didn't hear back from Michael yet about my suggestion that he monitor slobs mail for things that should be public...
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: the specific issue was brought up by m_stone, who seems to be afk now
:'''<walterbender>''' but having someone who's job it is to ensure we are as transparent as possible seems a good thing...
:'''<tomeu>''' some people feel trouble in getting integrated into SLs, and I don't see how we can improve there
:'''<gregdek>''' Is this an issue from anyone other than m_stone?
:'''<bernie>''' dirakx: we're missing dfarning's consent before we can "declassify" it :-)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: ivan pointed out that the thread happened out of the slobs ml
:'''<dirakx>''' bernie: ok.np.
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, dfarning said he would be away the weekend and part of the week
:'''<tomeu>''' but he seems to be occasional email access
:'''<tomeu>''' s/be/have
:'''<walterbender>''' I agree with dfarning regarding the merit of discussing some ideas with peers before entering into a public discussion: I am a big believer in editing.
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: cjb also said he was mad for that, but he might have been joking
:'''<gregdek>''' My quick take: (1) slobs ml archive should be open unless there's a compelling reason not to open it; (2) slobs ml should be invite-only even if the archive is available.
:'''<tomeu>''' something related, anybody has already thought about declassifying a month worth of slobs mail after some months/years?
:'''<gregdek>''' Limited, but transparent.
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: but where we'll discuss issues that involve partners that demand privacy?
:'''<tomeu>''' I thought that was the only purpose of the slobs ml
:'''<walterbender>''' The reason for a private list is to have a place to discuss things that others have asked us to keep private.
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: good point.
:'''<tomeu>''' not of the slobs in itself, just the ml
:'''<walterbender>''' I don't think we ever (purposefully) discuss SL business in private.
:'''<tomeu>''' slobs issues that don't demand privacy should be discussed in iaep
:'''<gregdek>''' walterbender: But everyone assumes that you do.
:'''<walterbender>''' that is why I'd like a 3rd party to monitor the list...
:'''<gregdek>''' The existence of a private email list *always* makes people assume that you are discussing Serious Business there.
:'''<walterbender>''' some 3rd party business is serious
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek: we publish all our code so people can check that we don't have time to discuss stuff in private :p
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: ideally, one of the observers should be doing the name blanketing
:'''<tomeu>''' ok, then +1 to have a transparency cop in the slobs ml
:'''<gregdek>''' Make m_stone that guy.
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe that is all we can do at the moment...
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: also, michael came in at an extraordinary time where 12 emails were sent the same day. usually it's 2-3 per day.
:'''<walterbender>''' I've asked him.
:'''<shenki>''' the results of these kinds of discussions come out in the weekly news, right?
:'''<gregdek>''' Good. :)
:'''<walterbender>''' shenki: yes
:'''<walterbender>''' next topic then?
:'''<bernie>''' shenki: not always, especially negotiations with hw companies
:'''<walterbender>''' (4) FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' shenki: oh, you mean the present discussion? yes
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: well, but those discussions must go public at some point
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: or they fail
:'''<shenki>''' bernie: i ment in general
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: yes
:'''<bernie>''' ok next topic
:'''<shenki>''' yep
:'''<walterbender>''' When they don't go public, it is an example of a failure.
:'''<tomeu>''' we are going to have much bigger activity in this year's fosdem
:'''<bernie>''' We're gathering on Friday for a pre-meeting in a hacker room kindly offered by the FOSDEM organizers
:'''<walterbender>''' lots of important meetings of the mind there too
:'''<bernie>''' http://hsb.wikidot.com/
:'''<walterbender>''' Can we plan to keep an IRC channel open during the meetings?
:'''<tomeu>''' gregdek, bernie, ChristophD: anything will happen in fosdem that is not here? http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Events/FOSDEM_2009
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: the problem we have about that right now is that we only have one meeting with time assigned and none with an agenda
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, not anything that I'm aware of ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: I'm going to send reminders today
:'''<walterbender>''' we should schedule the unofficial events too, such as the code sprint with Rob Savoye
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, rob also needs to say what time works for him
:'''<walterbender>''' when we get meeting times nailed down, it would be good to send a heads up.
:'' erikos will meet with sdzillas to talk about SoaS
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: I will review and add anything necessary.
:'''<gregdek>''' erikos: Great!
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: yes. we'll get drunk on friday night
:'''<ChristophD>''' gregdek, will you join us on Friday?
:'''<gregdek>''' ChristophD: Unclear. I'm spending part of the day in an open source education conference with Mozilla.
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: who's sdzilla?
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sebastian dzillas
:'''<bernie>''' or what is it?
:'''<ChristophD>''' gregdek, ah, okay, well, that shall be interesting as well!
:'''<gregdek>''' bernie: Fedora volunteer who is maintaining a Sugar spin for Fedora that is *very* similar to SoaS.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sebastian dziallas
:'''<gregdek>''' Looking to cut down on duplication of effort, I presume.
:'''<walterbender>''' yeah. sebastian has brought up a lot of interesting strategic points we should discuss.
:'''<bernie>''' gregdek: we *must* throw SoaS on his shoulders
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yup - he offered kindly some help and we wish to coordinate a bit
:'''<bernie>''' :)
:'''<gregdek>''' Yep. :)
:'''<gregdek>''' He's a 17 year old kid with huge enthusiasm and capacity.
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: will he need access to SLs infrastructure?
:'''<bernie>''' one issue dfarning brought up in the sekret thread was that we're dispersing too much energy in supporting disparate distros.
:'''<walterbender>''' there is a plan to have a SoaS stand somewhere?
:'''<bernie>''' developers should develop
:'''<erikos>''' gregdek: oh wow - awesome
:'''<gregdek>''' walterbender: We will be making SoaS on demand at the Fedora booth.
:'''<walterbender>''' I gather someone will be handing out USB keys at the meeting...
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sure, i think there is always a long term and short term goal
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: we just help to get the ball rolling
:'''<walterbender>''' gregdek: great
:'''<gregdek>''' "Bring your USB key, get SoaS!"
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: sure, now it is maybe the time to spend some energies to widen our user base.
:'''<caroline>''' when you see companies giving out USB sticks see if they want to give us some to give to kids.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yes - and i really think soas is a good tool for that
:'''<bernie>''' if we keep in mind we should hand off these things to local maintainers so we don't stay busy with the packaging and distro work
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: sure
:'''<walterbender>''' If and when we have some money, we can make branded sticks (2 gig) for ~$5-10 depending on quantity
:'''<caroline>''' You should have lollipops at the booth too :)
:'''<walterbender>''' 2 color printing.
:'''<bernie>''' caroline: indeed
:'''<walterbender>''' And I am still chasing after Belkin
:'''<bernie>''' mchua is printing business cards
:'''<bernie>''' she's sweet
:'''<tomeu>''' btw, we may need to start thinking about our presence in the next conferences, etc
:'''<ChristophD>''' walterbender, excellent idea selling the SugarLabs SoaS sticks!
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, mchua will be at FOSDEM???
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: no :-(
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: but her soul will be
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: oh right - does she need some details from us?
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, hehe, okay... too bad she wont be there!
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: andriani will get us business cards designed, organized and paid for by mel
:'''<caroline>''' where in the world is Mel today?
:'''<erikos>''' zzz i guess
:'''<bernie>''' I thought boston?
:'''<bernie>''' jetlagged?
:'''<erikos>''' i guess so
:'''<walterbender>''' Anything else re FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' do we have more companies to approach?
:'''<bernie>''' collabora will be there too
:'''<bernie>''' of course
:'''<walterbender>''' Any and all hardware folks who will be there... and distros, and the edu spins
:'''<bernie>''' I have a meeting with a TI guy
:'''<bernie>''' they have a nice ARM laptop, apparently
:'''<bernie>''' sorry, I never mentioned before... you know, it's a cabal
:'''<tomeu>''' as long as you don't disclose your talks with microsoft, we are good
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, I wanna see that laptop as I'm very excited about the low-cost ARM netbooks!
:'''<walterbender>''' there are a lot of new laptops coming out: gdium and the one from India...
:'''<tomeu>''' the mobilis I guess, not the $10 one :p
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: yeah, it's very likely that the future of the industry is arm-only
:'''<walterbender>''' don't discount mips
:'''<ChristophD>''' good point
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, mips is cheaply done in china
:'''<ChristophD>''' but I think for 2009-2010 ARM will be kind, esp. in Europe and North America
:'''<walterbender>''' and italy
:'''<bernie>''' do we meet with anyone from mandriva?
:'''<bernie>''' and opensuse?
:'''<bernie>''' opensuse is also strong on some netbooks
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: although alsroot is doing nice work on sugar on mandriva 2009.1, we don't know yet how sugar can get into the mandriva versions that run on arm and mips
:'''| aa (n=aa@r190-135-151-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy) has joined #sugar-meeting'''
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: mandriva standard doesn't build for those architectures, they seem to have something internal
:'''<walterbender>''' tomeu: I think the gdium team may have some ideas there...
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:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: so would be good to keep them in sync
:'''<bernie>''' the openmoko guys will be there -- naa, I don't think we care
:'''<walterbender>''' they will be at FOSDEM
:'''<tomeu>''' yeah, they must know about mandriva+mips
:'''<ChristophD>''' could someone take http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Events/FOSDEM_2009#Goals_.7C_Community_Meetup and turn it into a real agenda with attached schedule so we dont go off on a tangent?
:'''<walterbender>''' apparently they have many improvements over the core
:'''<walterbender>''' one theme I think a lot of people are interested in is how to integrate their widgets with Sugar
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: I guess we have lots to discuss about that, I'm not sure what that would mean right now
:'''<walterbender>''' me neither.
:'''<walterbender>''' but a lot of h'ware folks do some unique things to give them some differentiation...
:'''<walterbender>''' how that would integrate with Sugar is important.
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: will think of some proposals there
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, thanks :)
:'''<bernie>''' what hw do we expose at the booth?
:'''<walterbender>''' hopefully some concrete discussions will happen at FOSDEM
:'''<bernie>''' I have an EEE-PC, and an XO
:'''<ChristophD>''' classmate
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: do we have a booth? ;)
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, what about the Beagle board?
:'''<walterbender>''' All that we can...
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: do you have soas running on it already?
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: nubae also has one apparently
:'''<walterbender>''' I printed a big Sugar Labs banner I used at LCA.
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: yes I was planning to get it there
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, nubae has aaron's classmate
:'''<walterbender>''' Anyone going to FOSDEM from Boston?
:'''<bernie>''' but it requires a display
:'''<ChristophD>''' and I think its currently a vanilla ubuntu install with sugar on top of it
:'''<bernie>''' who could bring an LCD panel?
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, you are the ones going by car ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: maybe gregdek knows someone from RH who travels there from boston?
:'''<bernie>''' Oh, btw: robsavoye will be there too. we'd like to hack together a gnash activity
:'''<gregdek>''' tomeu: Nope.
:'''<gregdek>''' Maybe just shout out to the list?
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: not any more. we were 6, costs went up... and planes were €10...
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: have some ideas about that
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: cool, it shouldn't be hard with bertf's wrapper script
:'''<caroline>''' there was a gnash developer at the olpc-[hilippines meeting
:'''<bernie>''' tomeu: or with proper fallbacks in sugar for native applications
:'''<ChristophD>''' bernie, ah, okay, when will you be arriving at BRU?
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: oh, I thought we were going to be a bit ambitious, but let's talk about it in #sugar
:'''<bernie>''' ChristophD: thursday evening
:'''<ChristophD>''' okay, great
:'''<tomeu>''' caroline: do you know if that gnash dev in in sugar-devel?
:'''<tomeu>''' s/in/is
:'''<caroline>''' no clue sorry
:'''<walterbender>''' anything else abut FOSDEM to discuss here?
:'''<walterbender>''' we should talk about (5) Finances as we are getting late
:'''<walterbender>''' We have a little money and a few expenses...
:'''<walterbender>''' I have a big stack of grant rejections...
:'''<walterbender>''' and a few more birds in the bush...
:'''<walterbender>''' I need some help identifying opportunities
:'''<bernie>''' I've just exchanged a few words with rob.
:'''<bernie>''' he'll be in brussels friday evening, too late for the hack room.
:'''<walterbender>''' particularly outside of the US usual gang of suspects
:'''<walterbender>''' bernie: whereas you added finances to the agenda, anything you wanted to discuss?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: OSL did a lot of good work for us. I was thinking of rewarding them with a small donation
:'''<bernie>''' some $200-300 just to show our gratitude
:'''<bernie>''' they have discretely asked for donations to the lab a few times
:'''<bernie>''' then, the FSF still isn't asking us money
:'''<bernie>''' but they should :-)
:'''<bernie>''' their server has been in production for a while now
:'''<bernie>''' GA
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe a token gesture to OSL until we have surer footing...
:'''<walterbender>''' I don't want us in a position where we are operating in the red...
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe a more detailed financial report from dfarning next week?
:'''<walterbender>''' with a budget?
:'''<walterbender>''' then we would be in a better position to make decisions.
:'''<bernie>''' ok
:'''<tomeu>''' we don't have the meetingbot on to record AI?
:'''<bernie>''' no hurry
:'''<bernie>''' crap we forgot
:'''<walterbender>''' I'll just trasnscribe by hand
:'''<tomeu>''' so, what else before we can get back to code?
:'''<walterbender>''' final topic: 0.84?
:'''<walterbender>''' Erikos: can yo give a quick update?
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: so we hope to get a god understanding what is broken what needs fixed
:'''<erikos>''' and how the new design changes work out
:'''<erikos>''' with the testing we get from the soas
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: so i don't think we are to bad
:'''<tomeu>''' we don't know if we are too bad :p
:'''<erikos>''' tomeu: yeah ;)
:'''<tomeu>''' so we need more testing
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: the main issue in general is distraction
:'''<bernie>''' I did some informal testing
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: from the actual coding
:'''<erikos>''' tomeu: yup
:'''<bernie>''' on the EEE, we have a few problems with the smaller display size
:'''<tomeu>''' but have enough tickets to fix right now
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: cool
:'''<bernie>''' and supposedly the classmate will be the same
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yes - this is one item that needs to be addressed
:'''<walterbender>''' How can we make sure that the various testing teams (e.g., Wellington) try the new code?
:'''<bernie>''' on F11, we have a few dead activities due to 2.5 ->''' 2.6
:'''<walterbender>''' are they listed in the wiki?
:'''<bernie>''' apart from this, 0.83 looks very polished to me
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: that is ok i presume - we only want to have the fructose ones packaged
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: that i did already
:'''<bernie>''' joyride does not seem to boot on my xo
:'''<bernie>''' is it broken?
:'''<--| eric_the_sad has left #sugar-meeting
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: don't worry about joyride
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: announce the soas on the list and on the blog
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: i want to have a FOSDEM spin
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: with the latest fixes in
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: then it's ok
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: that we cna announce widely again
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: turtleart also has issues with the eee display
:'''<walterbender>''' yes... tell me exactly what to announce.
:'''<walterbender>''' @bernie: which version?
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: what went on SoaS?
:'''<tomeu>''' bernie: also, what resolution?
:'''<walterbender>''' from the activity dev. POV, it is really hard to test everything everywhere
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: that is the latest working one http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=332
:'''<walterbender>''' and old builds too.
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: i will update you with newer versions
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: I have a disruptive proposal: why don't we change the default screen size of sugar-emulator to the same of the EEEPC for a while?
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: so developers see these bugs on their computers
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: you can set screen size for the emulator easily
:'''<walterbender>''' I run jhbuild at various resolutions...
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: yeah, but who does? :)
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: -i
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: -1?
:'''<bernie>''' ah!
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: heh
:'''<walterbender>''' but for instance, making sure an activity still runs on 656 or 703 or even 767?
:'''<walterbender>''' and making sure it runs on Fedora and Debian...
:'''<walterbender>''' it is difficult.
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: i am ok - to change the default - but maybe more 1024x748
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: I mean, it's a psychological trick to shake bugs easily. the weirdest and more restrictive the default, the better
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: ok with me - tomeu?
:'''<bernie>''' erikos: ok for 1024x768, it also fits better in people's displays
:'''<walterbender>''' One other thing to keep in mind is that there are scaling issues in Pango between the XO and other displays...
:'''<erikos>''' bernie: yeah 768 i meant ;p
:'''<walterbender>''' I had to introduce a scaling factor in TAPortfolio because the fonts will all wrong on the XO
:'''<bernie>''' walterbender: oh yes. dpi really need some work. I asked unmadindu to have a look if he has time
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: yeah :/
:'''<tomeu>''' fine with me, but won't other users feel bugged by that
:'''<tomeu>''' ?
:'''<walterbender>''' I think it is an XO-spefici issue...
:'''<bernie>''' we should also have a smaller cursor for lower DPI displays
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: it may be a high resolution issue, so would be present in other machines
:'''<walterbender>''' Is there a page in the wiki with the list things to look for in making an activity cross-platform?
:'''<tomeu>''' benzea has some ideas about that, need to talk with him
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: don't think so
:'''<walterbender>''' For example, I discovered that the reason TA wouldn't launch in 703 was that I was checking the version number of the activity, which is not an environment variable set in 703... I had to add an exception
:'''<walterbender>''' Erikos, if you tell me where to put the page, I'll start adding the gotchas I have encountered...
:'' unmadindu plans on looking at gnome-settings daemon to figure out dpi stuff.
:'' unmadindu has chewed g-s-d before
:'''<tomeu>''' walterbender: perhaps inside the ActivityTeam wiki area?
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: sorry, which page?
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: that would be awesome
:'''<walterbender>''' tomeu: +1
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: what version works with which release?
:'''<unmadindu>''' I think it uses xsettings for handling dpi stuff, but I'll have to check
:'''<walterbender>''' erikos: a page for activity developers to consult re cross platform and corss version compatibility
:'''<walterbender>''' (and testing tips)
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: I think it uses the value that gets set in the gnome "appearance" control panel
:'''<erikos>''' walterbender: oh ok - yeah i agree with toeu to put it in the ActivityTeam namespace
:'''<tomeu>''' unmadindu: not sure if it lives in xsettings or in gconf
:'''<bernie>''' we degenerated into heavily technical discussion for a slobs meeting, but I like it
:'''<walterbender>''' maybe we bring the meeting to a close and move back to #sugar?
:'''<erikos>''' yup sounds good
:'''<walterbender>''' OK. See you on #sugar
:'''<erikos>''' thanks
:'''<walterbender>''' meeting adjourned
:'''<ChristophD>''' Isnt this cross-platform compatibility issue something that should also be considered for the Remora project?
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: yeah, remora already allows us to tag a bundle with a sugar version and a platform
:'''<tomeu>''' ChristophD: I don't think that we have any portability issue''' that mozilla don't have as well in their addons
:'''<ChristophD>''' tomeu, ah, good to know, thanks :)
:'''<marcopg>''' duh adjourned just now that I'm arrived!