sdziallas: it seems the process of creating the spin is somewhat orthogonal... as it should be in my opinion
<SeanDaly> The "Sugar on a Stick" name and mark is associated with a specific Sugar Labs liveUSB project. You may produce and distribute Sugar Labs software on a USB key or other support, bbut you must choose a different name to avoid confusion.
<walterbender> SeanDaly: that is clear
<SeanDaly> i find 2a and 2b a bit foggy
<sdziallas> walterbender: well... I'm just saying that I certainly don't want several $DISTRO SoaS editions.
<walterbender> seandaly: but other than switching the sentence order, is it really any different?
<SeanDaly> sdziallas: i agree
bernie:finished reading backscroll
<walterbender> SeanDaly: but I am happy with that restatement...
SeanDaly: you replaced required with must... I suppose that is a wash?
<SeanDaly> walterbender: meaning is same, but I think is clearer
<bernie> sdziallas: I agree
<SeanDaly> "are required" is fine
<bernie> sdziallas: the other existing live usb distros are already called something different
<mchua> stickster: did we answer the questions the Fedora Board had?
<bernie> sdziallas: I think it's pacific that SoaS means Fedora SoaS from now on
<sdziallas> bernie: yes! I just don't want anybody to get the impression that the Fedora SoaS will be anything different than SoaS. - I want them to be the same for now.
<mchua> folks, I know stickster has to run in about 15m so is there anything else we need to ask him/want to clear up?
walterbender: you had something about translations?
<SeanDaly> bernie: the idea with tm policy is protection from the ill-intentioned...
<sdziallas> bernie: hehe ;)
<walterbender> I would like to clear up the question Rita had last week
<bernie> SeanDaly: +1
<walterbender> if she makes a .de version of SoaS, is Fedora OK with that?
<stickster> mchua: Yes, my questions are all answered
<SeanDaly> getting back to 2a and 2b, i think there is a clear case for making translated versions simple
but, where are bug reports filed for translated versions?
<mchua> stickster: ^^ walterbender's question
<SeanDaly> what contact info is given?
<mchua> #info All of Fedora's questions have been answered, w00t.
<SeanDaly> is Activity set identical?
<walterbender> SeanDaly: but I want to make sure that Fedora is OK with translations too, since SoaS has to uphold both our and their stamdards.
<sdziallas> walterbender: I'm encouraging them to work with the SoaS team to get the files into our GIT repo.
<walterbender> SeanDaly: that is a different question altogehter...
<stickster> walterbender: That's permissible from our standpoint, which is 100% remixability. Usage of "SoaS" on that .de version would really be up to SL, but Fedora wouldn't have any problem with it. Helpful if it was labeled clearly
<walterbender> stickster: thanks for the clarification. I'll let Rita know.
<bernie> sdziallas: but would you object with them working on a separate repo if they prefer for interal reasons?
<walterbender> SeanDaly: we have thus far skirted the issue of activities, additional content, etc., presuming it is all free...
<sdziallas> bernie: if they decide to havily modify the system or content, yes.
<walterbender> SeanDaly: I think I would like to defer that set of mods to a separate discussion
<bernie> sdziallas: then they should rename SoaS to something else, right?
<sdziallas> bernie: exactly!
<SeanDaly> walterbender: if it's called Sugar on a Stick...
<sdziallas> bernie: if they just want to change the language, it's certainly fine with me to be called SoaS.
<SeanDaly> i believe translation is a special case of "remix"
<mchua> #info Question for Fedora: Are translations (example: Rita's .de version of SoaS) of the SoaS Fedora Spin accepable for Fedora?
<bernie> sdziallas: and, if I understand correctly, something like "German SoaS" or "Sugar on a SD Card" would be fine with us?
<sdziallas> bernie: you mean when it's heavily modified or just the language changed?
<SeanDaly> but translation to me means: same download page, same Activity set, same bugtracker
<mchua> #info Yes, from Fedora's standpoint on Fedora Spins, it is permissible; their goal is 100% remixability. Usage of the word "SoaS" on that .de version is SL's decision.
<sdziallas> SeanDaly: +1!
<SeanDaly> just different language
<bernie> sdziallas: let's say they have heavily modified to the point they can't use the plain SoaS name any more
<sdziallas> bernie: German SoaS won't work from my point of view, then.
bernie: because it's just not SoaS anymore.
(since they don't follow the criteria SeanDaly just mentioned)
<SeanDaly> put another way: how can we support sdz in bringing localization?
<walterbender> does anyone else have any changes/comments re the TM guidelines?
<bernie> sdziallas: then I think we're being even more restrictive than Fedora. It is acceptable to call something "Fedora Lab" or "Super Hacked Fedora" by Red Hat's trademark policy, I believe
<sdziallas> bernie: nope.
<stickster> bernie: not correct
<walterbender> I think the issues re process are orthogonal...
<SeanDaly> walterbender: re my mail about tm and label program: I think we can't escape imposing as condition a request + authorization step
stickster:wants to make sure everyone understands his opinion was on the permissibility of a separately hosted .de version of SoaS -- Fedora is not being asked to build or maintain any separate SoaS at this point, other than sdziallas' spin
<sdziallas> stickster: what I'm suggesting is to have simple kickstart files for other languages, as some Fedora Spins already have, too (which haven't been approved, either).
<bernie> stickster: I think we agree on this. I'm making a wider argument on permitted usage of the SoaS base name in derivatives.
<sdziallas> bernie: if you alter it substantially, it's not SoaS anymore.
<walterbender> the question is simply, if someone wants to make a .de version of SoaS, no matter what process is used to make it, as long as it is not a substantial change to Sugar (as per 2a) is it OK with Fedora as wll.
walterbender: ^^ Thanks :-)
<bernie> sdziallas: well, "Funky SoaS" is clearly not SoaS. It's about how much we want to be restrictive about the name SoaS
<sdziallas> bernie: sure, it is.
<walterbender> bernie: are you wanting to reopen 2a?
<sdziallas> bernie: you can't go and take Ubuntu and call it My Fedora, either.
<SeanDaly> in my view we need to foster multi languages for SoaS , but we can't have those all over the Net
<bernie> I'd like us to be as restrictive as the mark Linux (i.e. not too much)
stickster:notes that Fedora allows remixes that depart substantially by providing a secondary mark and logo.
<sdziallas> stickster: that's probably the way to go, yes.
<SeanDaly> i understand the motivation to get it done, but it's more important to get it right
<bernie> SeanDaly: can we amend 2a saying explicitly something that makes it clear that Sugar Labs generally grants free trademark licenses in most cases?
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<SeanDaly> walterbender: yes much better for protecting & growing tm's
<bernie> SeanDaly: seems like a good compromise between being liberal about the TM and defending it.
<SeanDaly> our goal is to grow awareness, to do that we need to protect marks
<walterbender> SeanDaly: I don't think it hurts to suggest we are going to do our best to be coorperatve
<SeanDaly> again, i'm not worried about the sincere, just the insincere
<bernie> SeanDaly: my problem is that people will feel the need to call their product FrugBluz instead of "SoaS Paraguay" because they think they'd not get a license
<CanoeBerry> SeanDaly aside: if we need ever need to enforce emails being received that is a solvable problem-- email notification could be accompanied by a requirement that someone post thehybrid/remix/whateve r to a wiki listing of all such offshoots.
<mchua> bernie: I think this is where we show things by our actions and deeds, not by words.
<SeanDaly> bernie: that's easy, we link to a FAQ which explains how simple the procedure is and gives examples
<bernie> SeanDaly: let's put it this way: will we be liberal in granting TM licenses if those asking them are not being abusive?
<SeanDaly> CanoeBerry: see my mail on this topic to the marketing list - URLs part of request
<bernie> SeanDaly: And, if so, do we have a problem in saying so explicitly?
<SeanDaly> bernie: 1) why not? 2) sure - like I say, in the FAQ
<bernie> mchua: words are cheap, if this is what we do, why not say so prominently at the top of the TM page?
<walterbender> bernie: we have some language--maybe not enough--in the preamble
<bernie> SeanDaly: ok, then I guess I agree with 2a with the FAQ clarifying this (or we could say so at the top of the page to make it easy to find)
sdziallas:also curious where this alias would redirect
<bernie> sdziallas: yeah, we should probably nominate a licensing person
<SeanDaly> bernie: yes, it's good... and more restrictive than ours :D
<bernie> sdziallas: the fsf has one
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<bernie> sdziallas: perhaps a panel? (jesus, not! :-)
<sdziallas> bernie: DOH! :)
<SeanDaly> walterbender: the preamble is a good place to explain our objectives of spreading Sugar while protecting our marks
<bernie> SeanDaly: +1
sdziallas, walterbender: can we make SeanDaly our "licensing panel" to start with?
<SeanDaly> in my mind, auth by SLOBs vote if request is in order; just somebody to evaluate request and make reco to SLOBs (this could be me)
sdziallas:would like to have a SoaS team in the loop, obviously.
<bernie> I may make mail for email@example.com (or firstname.lastname@example.org ?) go to Sean... and maybe also to marketing@, or slobs@?
<sdziallas> (in case it concerns SoaS, at least)
<mchua> so the "licensing person" makes sure it gets brought up as a proper motion in a SLOBs meeting, basically?
if it passes general sanity tests?
<bernie> sdziallas: then we should then distinguish licensing requests for SoaS from those for Sugar... I had both in mind at the same time.
<SeanDaly> bernie: trademark@ is better this is for trademark licensing, not SW licensing
<bernie> mchua: no, I was thinking that the licensing person would make the decision on his/her own
<walterbender> OK. I added new language in the preamble and after Section 2b. Please have a look
<bernie> mchua: to streamline the procedure
<walterbender> Also, we have once again run out of time :(
<CanoeBerry> will all decisions be public, or just the final verdict?
<SeanDaly> mchua: yes, a procedure in place: mail arrives, response saying is under consideration, request evaluated, returned if incomplete, when complete passed for vote with reco
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<sdziallas> bernie: probably, yeah. well, at least I believe there should be technical approval before something which wants to use the SoaS name goes up SLOBs (Fedora has the Spin SIG which has to decide on the technical approval, the Board afterwards on the trademark one).
<mchua> SeanDaly: +1 to that procedure.
<SeanDaly> The purpose of this policy is to protect the public, by ensuring that the identity, provenance, and open-source nature of Sugar Labs® remain clear, while encouraging Sugar use and development on different platforms and in different languages.
<walterbender> CanoeBerry: I would imagine that the organization requesting the mark would be asked if hey are OK wth a public discussion, but by default, for their privacy, it should be a closed discussion
<bernie> mchua: requesting a slobs vote means that we delay by 1 week *minimum*. We could trust Sean to do a good job at licensing, and if he doesn't people can always appeal to the board
<mchua> bernie: I would rather work on improving the decision-making efficiency of SLOBs.
<SeanDaly> sdziallas: i agree - eval will have several criteria, per my mail to mktg list linked above
<dogi> cioa bernie
<mchua> bernie: If people *know* they will have to wait a week, I think that's fine.
<bernie> sdziallas: it seems a little overkill to me
<sdziallas> SeanDaly: okay, cool :) (I wouldn't want a vote on SoaS to happen in private when I can't watch it)
<walterbender> well, I must withdraw my motion and will make a new motion next weel--16UTC :)
<sdziallas> bernie: so SLOBs would just vote on any SoaS thing in private without telling me?
<walterbender> #action: between now and then we should finalize the preamble
<SeanDaly> walterbender: legal stuff usually best confidential... because the ill-intentioned will do evil best to exploit dissent or weak arguments...
<bernie> mchua: if it's really a week, thant it would be fine
<mchua> People don't make things that need trademark decisions on the spur of the moment - to go from "idea to make $distro!" to "oh, I've got a testable $distro!" usually takes... at least a week.
<sdziallas> mchua: +1.
<walterbender> I think the discussion about the process of implementing the guidelines should be a separate discssion.
<tomeu> bernie: we do votes by email as well
<bernie> sdziallas: yeah, for SoaS I would agree that you should be at least consulted :-)
<SeanDaly> sdziallas: myself, I cannot imagine voting on anything SoaS without consulting you
<bernie> tomeu: yeah right
<tomeu> mchua: haven't we already improved decision making compared to what bernie says?
<mchua> sdziallas: Yes, and I think we could do a better job of lining up and announcing the SLOBs meeting agenda in advance so that nobody gets blindsided.
<walterbender> so can we please, please do our homework between meetings this time so we can reach some consensus?
<mchua> tomeu: I believe we have - it's the making of motions we need to work on, not so much passing them. ;)
walterbender: What's our homework?
<sdziallas> bernie, SeanDaly: cool! :) (sounds like I'm fine then)
<walterbender> clean up the TM policy language
<SeanDaly> mchua: my homework is a preamble which shows how friendly we are and willing to grant tm licenses
mchua: and, finalizing the procedure for the label program
<bernie> tomeu: I guess it depends how controversial the decision is. for those where we're divided, we may take a lot of time...
<walterbender> and a final review of the entirety of the document...
<bernie> tomeu: which is not necessarily bad, it's how democracy is supposed to work :)
<SeanDaly> mchua: and, probably putting the final text for the label program in 2a/2b
<bernie> SeanDaly: +1
<walterbender> bernie: in fairness, we have been at this for over a month and there has been plenty of opportunity to raise these issues early... in fact many had been raised early and discussed.
well, let's call it a day.
<mchua> bernie, perhaps the two of us could figure out your requirements for what it'd mean for trademarks to be a non-PITA to get, so we can check the proposed motions againt that next week.
<walterbender> thank you everyone.
<bernie> SeanDaly: sorry for being so pushy about the friendly thing. I cared very much for it :-/
<mchua> Thanks, Walter.
<SeanDaly> I admit I am cautious, but for good cause