Design Team/Meetings/2010-07-10

[10:31] == christianmarcsch [~christian@cpe-69-203-208-242.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #sugar-meeting
[10:32] <christianmarcsch> hi everyone
[10:32] <walterbender> hi christianmarcsch
[10:32] <christianmarcsch> hi walter!
[10:33] <christianmarcsch> is gary there?
[10:33] <walterbender> not yet, it seems
[10:33] <christianmarcsch> did you see the PDF?
[10:34] <walterbender> yes... It looks good... but I think it is overkill
[10:34] <christianmarcsch> yes, we should discuss what the best solution would be
[10:35] <christianmarcsch> showing palettes sooner may work, though i think there may be some usability issues since they cover up so much of the screen (and hide other objects that you could interact with)
[10:36] <walterbender> if the initial pop-up is just start-resume-most-recent, that is pretty compact
[10:37] <silbe> oh, so 14:30 UTC already, not 15:30?
[10:39] <walterbender> We are +4 this time of year on the East Coast
[10:40] <walterbender> err. -4
[10:41] <silbe> that's why it's always a good idea to agree on times based on UTC, so everyone can do the calculation based on UTC instead of introducing errors while doing the offset calculation twice.
[10:41] <silbe> date -d '<date> <time> UTC' will always print the correct local time
[10:42] <silbe> (it's important to use <date> of the meeting in case it's near a change of DST)
[10:43]  * walterbender would prefer to wait until 15:30UTC...
[10:44] <christianmarcsch> i may not be able to do 15:30...
[10:44] <christianmarcsch> we could try tomorrow?
[10:45] <christianmarcsch> walter, i think that a shorter palette delay may work, but i'm a bit concerned about immediate visibility
[10:45] <christianmarcsch> i've run into similar situations, where hover behavior causes elements to appear over other objects, making them hard to reach
[10:46] <walterbender> christianmarcsch: then we are still back to the question of resume vs new...
[10:46] <christianmarcsch> right, yes
[10:46] <christianmarcsch> well,
[10:46] <christianmarcsch> one possibility is that we show a smaller palette on click
[10:46] <christianmarcsch> (instead of the modal dialog)
[10:47] <christianmarcsch> so, something in between the modal dialog, and the hover palette
[10:48]  * walterbender trying to picture it...
[10:51] <christianmarcsch> gary had a sketch of something similar a while ago
[10:51] <christianmarcsch> maybe we should have that for comparison
[10:53] <walterbender> maybe we can sketch out each of these ideas and try them... the two-item pop up should be easy enough to try...
[10:54] <christianmarcsch> you mean in code? that would be ideal
[10:54] <christianmarcsch> then we can really get a sense for the interaction
[10:54] <walterbender> yes... code...
[10:55] <christianmarcsch> when you say two-item pop up, are you thinking the "resume" item would open up into a secondary menu?
[10:55] <christianmarcsch> or would it go to the journal?
[10:55] <walterbender> not sure which...
[10:55] <christianmarcsch> or would it resume the last activity?
[10:55] <christianmarcsch> with only two items i don't think there is a usability issue
[10:56] <walterbender> I think new or most recent is a reasonable compromise...
[10:57] <christianmarcsch> i agree
[10:57] <christianmarcsch> that seems low-cost, and addresses the issue
[10:58] <walterbender> and also, a small change from the UI perspective, so it is likely to be accepted down stream...
[10:58] <silbe> what exactly are you envisioning? I don't quite get it from your descriptions...
[10:58] <christianmarcsch> so, is resume then still the default click behavior?
[10:58] <christianmarcsch> i'll create a quick mockup
[10:59] <walterbender> that is debatable...
[10:59] <walterbender> silbe: the idea is as I described it in my email: an instant (or very quick) pop up of a choice of start new or resume most recent.
[10:59] <walterbender> silbe: a longer delay (as we currently have) for the full palette of choices
[11:00] <silbe> walterbender: so like the mockups Michael and Gary (IIRC) produced some months ago?
[11:01] <walterbender> silbe: yes
[11:01] <walterbender> and no modal dialog
[11:02] <walterbender> I worry about adding an extra step and I worry about introducing a radical change to the behavior that won't be accepted downstream
[11:02] <walterbender> so I like the Gary/Michael proposal
[11:03] <walterbender> and I like the additional simplicity of just two choices to start: new and resume
[11:03] <silbe> no modal dialog sounds good (though I'd just spawn the dialog in a new window instead of making it modal)
[11:04] <christianmarcsch> hang on, about to send a sketch
[11:04] <silbe> but I'd need to try it out to say anything about how good it might work
[11:06] <christianmarcsch> ok, just send another PDF
[11:06] <christianmarcsch> the idea is that a single click would resume, and selecting from the (immediate) hover would start new
[11:06] <christianmarcsch> this could be inverted based on the user-settings
[11:07] <silbe> what exactly would a single click resume? the most recent instance?
[11:07] <silbe> and how would it be different from what we have now?
[11:08] <christianmarcsch> the most recent instance, yes
[11:08] <christianmarcsch> the difference is that the hover preview appears immediately, not on delay
[11:09] <christianmarcsch> the reason it can appear immediately is that it doesn't obstruct much content below (a usability issue with the current size of our hover palettes)
[11:09] <christianmarcsch> anyway
[11:09] <christianmarcsch> i liked walter's idea of mocking up both options and evaluating which performs better
[11:10] <silbe> so delay removed, but also only a single entry so users have to go to the Journal if the want an instance that's not the most recent one, but need to use the home screen to start a new one and can use it to resume the most recent one?
[11:10] <christianmarcsch> yes
[11:11] <christianmarcsch> it seems like a fair compromise
[11:11] <christianmarcsch> the modal dialog would be the more extensive of the two options
[11:11] <christianmarcsch> so we can put both side-by-side, and evaluate how much functionality is needed
[11:11] <silbe> I don't think it's a good choice.
[11:12] <christianmarcsch> you don't think the last option is? or both?
[11:13] <christianmarcsch> i think there is a certain elegance to walter's proposal
[11:13] <silbe> the reason I use the home screen for resuming is because it has a list of instances filtered by activity. So I can choose the activity by moving the mouse onto it and then choose the instance I want, instead of having to move through a huge listbox in the journal and then choose from the resulting list.
[11:14] <christianmarcsch> well so that's the choice
[11:14] <silbe> Most of the time the instance I'm resuming is not the most recent one.
[11:14] <christianmarcsch> for what you are describing, the modal dialog could work
[11:14] <christianmarcsch> because we would still retain the hover palette
[11:14] <christianmarcsch> but of course, we can also evaluate these two options against what we have today
[11:14] <christianmarcsch> if today's version wins out, then perhaps there is no need for a change
[11:14] <silbe> that's why I like it. I imagine it as a Journal grid view pre-filtered by activity
[11:15] <christianmarcsch> yes, i agree that's what i like about that idea, as well
[11:15] <christianmarcsch> but personally i'm on the fence as to which i'd prefer
[11:15] <christianmarcsch> which is why i like the notion of prototyping both
[11:16] <christianmarcsch> then we can all make a more informed decision
[11:16] <silbe> I don't think having only resume-most-recent in the home screen is useful. Either remove it completely and improve the Journal, or leave the option to choose from multiple instances.
[11:17] <christianmarcsch> do you still have a mockup of the gary/michael proposal?
[11:17] <christianmarcsch> i want to make sure i remember it correctly
[11:18] <silbe> it should be in the list archives
[11:19] == garycmartin [~garycmart@95.146.9.144] has joined #sugar-meeting
[11:19] <christianmarcsch> hi gary
[11:19] <garycmartin> Hi christianmarcsch, just signing in early :)
[11:19] == scorche [~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche] has quit [Disconnected by services]
[11:19] <christianmarcsch> hah
[11:20] == scorche` [~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche] has joined #sugar-meeting
[11:20] <christianmarcsch> i thought we were on at 10:30/2:30
[11:20] <christianmarcsch> but i fear i caused some confusion with the time conversion
[11:20] <garycmartin> Aaaaagh!
[11:21] <christianmarcsch> :)
[11:21] <garycmartin> Has the meeting happened?
[11:21] <christianmarcsch> well, sort of
[11:21] <christianmarcsch> we were still discussing
[11:21] <christianmarcsch> take a look at the two pdfs i sent
[11:21] <christianmarcsch> walter had proposed an option similar to the last one
[11:22] <christianmarcsch> which i personally find quite elegant, as an alternative for the more extensive modal dialog
[11:22] <silbe> has anyone started meetbot, BTW?
[11:22] <christianmarcsch> i also wanted to ask if you could forward the sketch you and michael had produced earlier?
[11:22] <christianmarcsch> silbe: no, i don't believe so
[11:22] <silbe> #startmeeting
[11:22] <meeting> Meeting started at 11:25 UTC. The chair is silbe.
[11:22] <meeting> Commands Available: #TOPIC, #IDEA, #ACTION, #AGREED, #LINK
[11:23] <christianmarcsch> let me recap the options as i currently see them
[11:23] <silbe> #topic Start New/Resume from home screen
[11:23] <garycmartin> Hmm, been looking at the first pdf, the second looks borked. May just have a bad extension name.
[11:23] <christianmarcsch> i'll resend
[11:23] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: yea just a bad name,  needs .pdf
[11:24] <christianmarcsch> ok, i also resent as a single PDF (all three options)
[11:24] <christianmarcsch> so...
[11:24] <christianmarcsch> Option 1A: Modal dialog with full hover palette
[11:24] <christianmarcsch> Option 1B: Modal dialog with only hover preview
[11:24] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: fwiw I was just mocking up Walters pi menu suggestion.
[11:25] <christianmarcsch> Option 2: Immediate hover palette with only two options: resume the latest (on click), or start new
[11:25] <christianmarcsch> garycmartin: that's great--can you share it yet?
[11:25] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: Pie menus have some advantages but are notoriously painful to implement and get working right.
[11:25] <christianmarcsch> garycmartin: yes, i agree. worth looking at, though
[11:26] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: not done yet, having trouble with the layout myself :)
[11:26] <christianmarcsch> so, walter had made a suggestion that we code each of these options and compare them
[11:27] <christianmarcsch> i think that might be a good idea, so we can better evaluate each
[11:27] <silbe> Option 3: New full-screen window with Journal grid view pre-filtered by activity
[11:27] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: So is Walter offering to code them? ;)
[11:27] <christianmarcsch> silbe: isn't that similar to the modal dialog?
[11:28] <silbe> christianmarcsch: similar, but distinctive enough to list separately
[11:28] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so it basically takes you to a prefiltered journal?
[11:29] <silbe> christianmarcsch: exactly
[11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: on click?
[11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: i feel that it could be an option in the hover palette, but on click it may feel too indirect
[11:29] <christianmarcsch> silbe: that's why we ended up with a modal dialog--it still keeps you in context of the home view
[11:29] <silbe> christianmarcsch: yep. Start New should be an option in the full-screen window as well.
[11:30] <silbe> christianmarcsch: how would you trigger and dismiss the modal dialog?
[11:30] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so, i view this option as a variation of the modal dialog. we keep the dialog, but make it more extensive
[11:30] <garycmartin> Seeing as we suddenly have so many new suggestions, perhaps we should skip the realtime meeting and take some time to look at them using the mail-list?
[11:30] <christianmarcsch> silbe: look at the pdf: you can either click the X, or click the grayed out background around it
[11:30] <silbe> and make it non-modal because modal is a PITA
[11:30] <christianmarcsch> PITA?
[11:31] <silbe> christianmarcsch: and how do you trigger it? clicking on an activity?
[11:31] <christianmarcsch> silbe: yes
[11:31] <silbe> pain in the backside ;)
[11:31] <christianmarcsch> silbe: so, imagine we took this dialog and added a scrollbar
[11:32] <christianmarcsch> silbe: then we would have what you are describing, right?
[11:32] <christianmarcsch> silbe: it sounds like what you are looking for is to show more activities
[11:33] <silbe> more or less - except that I'd use the grid view (=> preview images) and make it non-modal.
[11:33] == m_anish [~anishmang@59.178.155.177] has joined #sugar-meeting
[11:33] <christianmarcsch> and by the way, we can also try list of grid view
[11:33] <christianmarcsch> silbe: yes, we can do that
[11:33] <silbe> and showing the start new in the "dialog" as well
[11:33] <christianmarcsch> ok, i'll record that as another design exploration
[11:33] <silbe> so they can decide whether to start new or resume based on the full list of old instances
[11:34] <christianmarcsch> silbe: ok, that makes sense.
[11:34] <christianmarcsch> i'll mock up that variation
[11:34] <silbe> I don't think it's optimal, but it might be a good step in the right direction
[11:35] <silbe> christianmarcsch: thanks!
[11:35] <silbe> IIRC garycmartin mentioned Apple doing something similar on the iPad
[11:35] <christianmarcsch> silbe: oh, that would be good to see
[11:36] <garycmartin> silbe: sorry, this meeting is not working for me, no idea what is being discussed. Was about to bail and ask folks to offline ideas to the mail-list.
[11:36] <christianmarcsch> gary, i can create a mockup
[11:37] <garycmartin> christianmarcsch: fab. I'll plough on with the pie menu mockup and will mail it to the list.
[11:37] <christianmarcsch> it's a more extensive version of page 3 in the pdf
[11:37] <christianmarcsch> great
[11:37] <christianmarcsch> i can talk again tomorrow if that works?
[11:40] <garycmartin> Can we try and get some threads going on the mail-list? Would find that easier, then use realtime chats only if we need to flesh things out or try to make a final call.
[11:40] <christianmarcsch> ok, sure
[11:40] <christianmarcsch> should we keep using the thread walter started?
[11:41] <garycmartin> Sure, remember to adjust the subject if needed.
[11:41] <christianmarcsch> will do
[11:42] <silbe> please start a new thread - the current one was about bernies pending patches and is already huge
[11:43] <christianmarcsch> ok...
[11:43] <garycmartin> LOL :)
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> well, to be continued!
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> i need to sign off
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> looking forward to the next round
[11:45] <silbe> so are we meeting again tomorrow or not?
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> i can if necessary
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> but i think gary preferred to do it asynchronously
[11:45] <garycmartin> Sorry, not me.
[11:45] <silbe> ok, then let's postpone it.
[11:45] <christianmarcsch> let's discuss via email thread for now
[11:46] <christianmarcsch> and reconvene here when it becomes necessary
[11:46] <silbe> as long as we keep the emails flowing that's fine with me
[11:46] <garycmartin> Thanks christianmarcsch, I'll catch up on the list.
[11:46] <silbe> we have a rather large backlog already and quite a bit of it was on the mailing list
[11:47] <christianmarcsch> sorry, i have to sign off now
[11:47] <silbe> #endmeeting
[11:47] <meeting> Meeting finished at 11:49.
[11:47] <meeting> Logs available at http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/sugar-meeting.log.20100710_1125.html
[11:47] <christianmarcsch> bye everyone!