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Oversight Board/2010/Meeting Log-2010-02-05 (view source)
Revision as of 12:12, 5 February 2010
, 12:12, 5 February 2010Created page with ':'''tomeu''' hi all! :'''walterbender''' hi it is about that time :) is bernie here? anyone besides tomeu actually listening? :'''SeanDaly''' helooo? :'''walterbender''' do we…'
:'''tomeu''' hi all!
:'''walterbender''' hi
it is about that time :)
is bernie here?
anyone besides tomeu actually listening?
:'''SeanDaly''' helooo?
:'''walterbender''' do we have quorum? We only have 3 so far
:'''tomeu''' cjb, mchua, CanoeBerry: ping
:'''walterbender''' we can chat in the meantime.
I had a long talk with the GeoGebra team this morning...
:'''cjb''' morning
:'''walterbender''' They are excited about getting their activity running on Sugar... but it will finally force the issue of getting decent Java support running...
ah. quorum...
:'''#'''startmeeting
:'''meeting''' Meeting started at 11:05 UTC. The chair is walterbender.
Commands Available: #TOPIC, #IDEA, #ACTION, #AGREED, #LINK
:'''walterbender''' A quick roll call:
* walterbender here
* SeanDaly here
* cjb here
* tomeu as well
:'''walterbender''' I hope mchua pops in for the GSoC discussion
meanwhile, shall we start with the usual: Trademarks?
:'''#'''topic update on TM discussion
:'''SeanDaly''' I had a message from Joe Raftery, but he edited my wiki page instead of sending a mail, he asked a question but I can't reach him
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: anything worth summarizing from the discussions on the lists?
:'''SeanDaly''' I think there's a concern that the procedure will be complex
I think it should be policy for approval to be fast-track for FOSS projects,
:'''cjb''' walterbender: I think everyone who commented was against the idea that we need more strict trademark rules than the other free software projects we've been comparing ourselves to
:'''SeanDaly''' and deeper review for commercial partners
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: do we have any specific language to propose?
:'''SeanDaly''' well, there were two comments... and no reply to my reply
Not today I'm afraid since I was wiped out from l'Atelier OLPC France day (which went very well)
But, it's clearer and clearer to me how I think it should work
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: it is great that the atelier went well...
:'''SeanDaly''' yes I will brief SLOBs on great contacts in separate mail
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: maybe the next step is for the two of you to work together on some new langauge to post to the lists...
:'''SeanDaly''' my pres. appreciated and will be published by OLPC France
back on topic: two things
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: (we need to follow up re Rotary one of these days too.)
:'''SeanDaly''' re other FOSS projects: the only one I'm interested in comparing with is a successful one
walterbender: true
Mozilla has been very successful with branding
However, that doesn't mean we need to carbon copy their policy
I'd like to emulate Dolby and Intel, but without the fees
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly cjb: it seems the two of you are representative of the diversity of opinions, so if you can reach consensus, it will prob. be a good position.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: sounds good
:'''cjb''' walterbender: ok
not sure what a concrete next step should be, though
:'''walterbender''' would you have time over the next week?
:'''SeanDaly''' second point: in light of my first point, are we sure we never want to charge commercial partners?
:'''cjb''' I'm interested in whether it's possible to use automatic revocation upon non-compliance in trademark licenses
but I don't know how to find an answer to that
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: it sure is, but the question is enforcement
:'''walterbender''' cjb: the goal is something simple and inviting for FOSS projects while maintaining some degree of oversight (as required by TM law and by our community standards)
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: surely if we don't have any enforcement available, it doesn't matter what the policy says?
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: we do have enforcement
-->| aniN (~anin@220.225.125.245) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''cjb''' ah. what exactly is the question, then?
:'''SeanDaly''' but just because the law says somebody can't steal a car, I won't leave a car running unattended with the keys in the ignition
:'''cjb''' I don't have any strong opinions on whether we should charge commercial partners, by the way :)
:'''SeanDaly''' re commercial partners: my instinct is to leave it open... it could be a very useful revenue stream even if peanuts per station
:'''cjb''' except that we are very small, and the groups we occasionally try and compare ourselves to (whether Mozilla or Dolby) are very big, and if you become as onerous to work with as a very big organization while you're still a small organization, you don't find as many people to work with.
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: the question is, how do you make the policy strong enough that anyone tempted to flout it will likely lose in court
:'''cjb''' so I'd be concerned about charging for marks as a strategic question -- will this create the largest ecosystem or not -- but nothing more than that.
:'''tomeu''' about charging partners, I think I have heard from martin langhoff about how moodle does it
:'''walterbender''' can we put aside the question of whether or not we charge people... that is seemingly orthogonal and yet another can of worms.
:'''tomeu''' not sure how well fares the moodle brand, though ;)
:'''SeanDaly''' tomeu: moodle brand not known by public, but well-known among educators by word-of-mouth
I believe they have a rather restrictive partner policy: 2 per country
:'''cjb''' wow, that is a surprising policy
:'''walterbender''' well, keeping in mind that we need more mindshare from educators...
:'''tomeu''' SeanDaly: not sure if they consider general public awareness as so important
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: yes. 2 per region.
:'''SeanDaly''' dfarning had briefed me on them a while back
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: (I had briefed dfarning based on a briefing from martin :) )
:'''SeanDaly''' :D
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: would it make sense to put a question in to Karen asking whether they've ever seen a GPL-like trademark license, and if they feel comfortable defending it?
:'''mchua''' GAH. I'm actually here, irssi didn't highlight the window. caught up on backlog though.
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: I am sure Martin would be willing to share his experiences with you.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: which martin again?
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: Langhoff
:'''SeanDaly''' ok
:'''tomeu''' he has been thinking about sustainability and partners for a while, I think SeanDaly might find interesting his opinions
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: well, their role is to defend our copyright, trademarks etc.
:'''walterbender''' for the sake of keeping on schedule, can we take it as an #action that cjb and SeanDaly will congress and come up with some new language?
:'''SeanDaly''' tomeu: yes, I discussed that with him last I was in Brussels
:'''walterbender''' and run it past the lists?
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: right, but they clearly have preferences on how they like to do that
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: sounds good
:'''tomeu''' ah, ok
:'''cjb''' maybe they will say "we think automatic trademark licenses don't work and we don't want to use them"
and that would be useful to hear
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: Karen said: "decide what you want & we will write the language"
* tomeu thanks cjb and SeanDaly for taking this unsexy task
:'''cjb''' ok, we'll work on it :)
:'''walterbender''' #action cjb and SeanDaly will draft some new TM and run it past the community for review.
:'''SeanDaly''' it's like sowing seeds in the rough: odds against us to get it right, but worth the effort
:'''cjb''' (I don't think we will have new policy ready for next week, though, given that we're still a bit far away philosophically.)
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: actually, I think that the two of you are the right ones...
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: well, a fair policy for FOSS projects with fast-track approval - what's not to like? :D
:'''walterbender''' we are never going to all agree on ever detail, but if we can find something we can all work with productively...
let's run through a few other agenda items in the meantime.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: after plain English policy will be legal doc by Karen, so still a ways to go...
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: as long as we are moving towards the goal.
On a related topic, we have a few new TM requests that have come in this week.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: top-of-mind! :D
I'm especially interested in openSUSE case
:'''walterbender''' Paraguay would like to use our mark and become some flavor of Sugar Lab...
they'd like an agreement from us.
:'''SeanDaly''' we don't have a way of recognizing "official" local labs do we?
a procedure even?
:'''walterbender''' Well, we are somewhat mired at the moment.
we had a process in place before the TM debate
but the TM debate seems to superceed it.
:'''SeanDaly''' yes, related...
:'''tomeu''' may be interesting to move forward with SLs argentina, in sight of recent news
:'''walterbender''' They are an ideal partner--strong in both pedagogy and technology and very strongly aligned with FOSS
:'''cjb''' tomeu: what's the recent news?
:'''walterbender''' if we cannot come up with a policy that expedites such requests, we are doing the wrong thing.
:'''tomeu''' cjb: 60k xo-1.5 in la rioja
:'''cjb''' cool, hadn't seen that number
:'''dogi''' :)
:'''tomeu''' arboleda was nice enough to mention sugar to the press
:'''cjb''' nice, got a url?
:'''tomeu''' there's a thread in iaep, and I have just blogged about it
:'''SeanDaly''' http://tecnologia.iprofesional.com/notas/93943-La-PC-barata-de-Negroponte-desembarca-en-la-Argentina-para-pelear-contra-Intel.html
:'''walterbender''' it was in email today...
:'''cjb''' thanks
:'''tomeu''' the article is better than its title
:'''SeanDaly''' this is precisely why I wish to coordinate PR & marketing with OLPC-F and especially OLPC-A
I have pinged Rodrigo again
more Sugar, less tech spex
:'''walterbender''' Anyway, I'll let Cecilia know that we are working on something for Paraguay...
* lfaraone waves.
:'''walterbender''' OK. Can we talk about GSoC?
:'''tomeu''' I count on paraguay educa to help other countries work together in sugar
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender:re expedite requests: I fully agree
hey just heard back from Rodrigo - looks like we will start coordinating!!
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: great...
:'''tomeu''' about gsoc, I'm personally going to focus my time on other contributors such as from downstreams
:'''walterbender''' #topic gsoc
:'''tomeu''' gsoc students have taken lots of my time in past editions
and I'm not sure it was really worth it, compared to other contributors
:'''mchua''' Do we know what sorts of things we'd want gsoc students to take on this summer? Is this the best use of our time?
:'''cjb''' tomeu: yeah, I see where you're coming from
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: I agree that that may be the best use of your time, but gsoc is useful in many ways, IMHO
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: sure, not saying otherwise
:'''walterbender''' Some people really enjoy mentoring students
:'''mchua''' my question is "who's going to step up to run this?"
:'''cjb''' well, one nice thing about gsoc is that it forces us to write down stuff we'd like other people to help with
:'''walterbender''' and some students, even if their project is not viable, go on to be community members
cjb: yes... it enforces a certain discipline
and it is a right of passage for a FOSS project
it keeps us in the broader community eye
:'''tomeu''' maybe activities would be more appropriate for gsoc?
:'''CanoeBerry''' Apologies for the very late arrival.
:'''walterbender''' for example, just this morning, GeoGebra was talk about getting involved with us on GSoC...
hi Adam
:'''CanoeBerry''' Ciao Todos
:'''walterbender''' Adam: need a backlog?
:'''CanoeBerry''' I'm OK, reading..
:'''walterbender''' But we should be careful about burning up key resources...
:'''dogi''' http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/sugar-meeting.log.20100205_1105.html
:'''walterbender''' I think we tied to tackle projects with too large of a scope last year...
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: +1
also, there's a very wide range of experience and capabilities in students
:'''walterbender''' but the first step is to decide (1) do we apply this year and (2) is yes, who is the team?
:'''tomeu''' we should match better projects with individuals
:'''mchua''' walterbender: I think the questions need to be the other way around.
:'''cjb''' :)
:'''walterbender''' Well, I asked the questions together for a purpose...
:'''tomeu''' yeah, I guess nobody is opposed to gsoc in principle?
:'''cjb''' I'd like to see us apply but have frankly no intention of helping. sorry. :)
:'''mchua''' (1) who, if anyone, is interested in leading the sl gsoc charge this year? (2) do we feel comfortable selecting a team/lead from those who volunteered and handing this responsibility to them, pretty much completely?
* mchua has no objections to applying, but has no further hands to lend for it this summer.
:'''walterbender''' I so far have heard from one person... Tim McNamara
:'''cjb''' perhaps we should post to iaep asking for volunteers to lead?
there was Jameson (and mchua) last year
:'''walterbender''' cjb: I've asked twice, both times buried on the Sugar Digest
:'''cjb''' ah, sorry.
* mchua cleaning up a stub page for that right now, will be ready in ~5m
:'''cjb''' I do read them :-)
:'''mchua''' Yeah, I saw the mentions but they may have been lost inline for most readers.
:'''walterbender''' cjb: well, it is obvious that I haven't done a good job getting the word out...
I'll work with Tim and try to pull in some more help.
mchua: the materials we prepared last year should mostly be relevant for this year.
* mchua nods.
:'''walterbender''' #action Walter to be more aggressive about assembling a team for GSoC
Any other suggestions re this topic?
OK. well, I have my action item.
The final topic on today's agenda is to review our goals for 2010.
:'''#'''topic Goals for 2010
I wrote a first draft for comment...
* walterbender looks for the URL
:'''CanoeBerry''' Side Comment about Tim McNamara..
He's 100% awesome and helping me lead QA back on track.
Where we can help.
The Sri Lankan team is very serious.
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: hmm, maybe next development team meeting could be about QA?
:'''walterbender''' http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board/Meeting_Minutes-2010-01-22#Goals_for_2010_2
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: we have so much to improve there...
:'''CanoeBerry''' tomeu: might take us 2+ weeks to get organized, but yes.
:'''walterbender''' CanoeBerry: thanks... that is great feedback.
:'''mchua''' walterbender: re gsoc, how does shouting-out http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code sound?
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: ok, I'm very interested, please ping me when you have more news
:'''mchua''' CanoeBerry: in fact, please ping iaep
:'''CanoeBerry''' Will do.
* tomeu reads proposed goals
:'''mchua''' walterbender: (note that I set an arbitrary date of feb 17 for announcing interest deadline, so we can pick a coordinator 2 meetings from now)
:'''walterbender''' re goals, they are all pretty generic and not easy to measure...
:'''tomeu''' is it REL or RHEL?
:'''cjb''' it's RHEL
pronounced our-hell :)
:'''tomeu''' :D
:'''walterbender''' regardless of the spelling, that will be an up-hill battle...
not technically, but in terms of the RHEL goals...
:'''mchua''' What can be done to make it easier?
:'''cjb''' yes, similar to the three-year-old battles at OLPC about what the software base would be
we rejected RHEL then because we knew we needed newer software than it provides
so I don't really understand why we think we might be a good idea now :)
* mchua was curious about that one too.
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: not sure how well it is covered by your proposal, but I planned to keep focusing on bringing more downstream people into sugar development: olpc deployments, igalia, davidfarning's initiative, etc
I think we care specially because of LTSP deployments in schools?
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: please add some new langauge
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: will do
* mchua wrote up her homework here:
:'''mchua''' #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Goals_2010
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: do we need to do anything special regarding RHEL?
it is similar to how olpc decides that their next release will be f11 with 0.84
:'''mchua''' tomeu: "package things for EPEL," aiui.
:'''walterbender''' cjb: re RHEL... It seems to me that offering a distro-based solution with an expected lifetime measured in multiple years would be desirable for our deployments.
:'''tomeu''' mchua: won't they sync packages from the corresponding fedora version?
:'''walterbender''' cjb: 3-years ago, Sugar wasn't ready... but I can anticipate being there soon... but maybe we are still 1 year too soon.
:'''SeanDaly''' actually, our six-month schedule means we will always be ahead of deployments; yet, it's a good rhythm for improving quickly
a very stable Sugar would guarantee our success
:'''mchua''' tomeu: (again, aiui) what we'd want to do is have Sugar stuff packaged in the EPEL (extra packages for enterprise linux) repositories, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: maybe we shouldn't worry too much about this RHEL and rather worry about the next one
:'''cjb''' walterbender: oh, you're talking about a *future* RHEL release?
:'''SeanDaly''' while an unstable Sugar will need even better marketing :D :D
:'''mchua''' tomeu: and that usually means "take the Fedora package, rebuild it against RHEL"
:'''tomeu''' cjb: yup
:'''cjb''' ahh
when is that scheduled for?
:'''tomeu''' mchua: right, so no big deal, right?
:'''mchua''' tomeu: right, no big deal at all.
:'''cjb''' it's normally only once every 3-4 years, right?
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: I agree. But I think it is important to set as a goal Sugar on a stable platform... maybe for 2011?
:'''mchua''' tomeu: I mean, we might want to do some testing, don't know if we have the resources for that sort of QA to be done right
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: sounds good to discuss how would sugar 1.0 would look like
:'''CanoeBerry''' INVITE: Will anybody here be joining Gerald Ardito & I our OLPC/Sugar/Haiti Creole Dinner Saturday NYC 5:30? Co-hosted with NYC's Haiti Crisis Camp. Please let me know!
http://kombitrestaurant.com
:'''tomeu''' I can see RHEL being a big deal for us if whatever version we had in the corresponding fedora release wasn't what we wanted in a stable distro
:'''SeanDaly''' might make more sense to imagine a major deployment as being the v1.0
:'''mchua''' cjb: There's no "when will the next RHEL" release date out yet but it's starting to get close to that time in the (multi-year) cycle
:'''CanoeBerry''' "Kombit" is the Creole word for volunteerism/collaboration..
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: maybe if we have a clean picture of Sugar 1.0, then we can be more attractive to the RHELs of the world.
:'''SeanDaly''' with QA resources to match
:'''tomeu''' but maybe we don't need to worry so much right now
walterbender: makes sense
SeanDaly: yeah, very important
:'''cjb''' mchua: ok. but we don't have to do anything special for it other than getting our packages working well in Fedora, I'm guessing
:'''walterbender''' so I will take it off the list of goals for 2010
:'''cjb''' because a RHEL release is based on a Fedora release
:'''SeanDaly''' another way to look at it is working back from OEM viewpoint
:'''mchua''' cjb: Yeah, I see "have packages working well in Fedora" as "and now it's easy to get them working in RHEL!" prerequisites when we're ready for that next step.
:'''SeanDaly''' what distro(s) referenced?
:'''cjb''' walterbender: I think it's okay for it to be a goal; working with the *next* RHEL is going to be very easy (zero effort), and working with the current RHEL would be almost impossibly hard.
:'''SeanDaly''' How does Sugar run on that distro?
:'''mchua''' cjb: and the step after that is "now that they're packaged (in EPEL) for RHEL, let's QA the living daylights out of it" which is an open question re: resources imo.
...but comes along much later. perhaps even next year.
:'''walterbender''' new wording: Define Sugar 1.0 so that we can begin partnering with long-term stable distros, such as RHEL
:'''tomeu''' cjb: not impossible for alsroot ;)
:'''SeanDaly''' to me it's more an event-triggered thing that a planned schedule thing... I mean, if Intel wanted to reference Sugar for the CMPC in 2010 on Mandriva, that would seem to me to become a priority, no?
:'''tomeu''' (he retro-fitted sugar in quite old mandriva and ubuntu derivatives)
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: maybe a goal should be to clone alsroot :)
:'''mchua''' walterbender: what's involved in "defining sugar 1.0"? (for those curious readers looking in for the first time with little context on the day-to-day of SL)
:'''tomeu''' heh
:'''cjb''' looks like we have 2 mins, folks
anything else?
lfaraone, walterbender: did the WMF servers arrive?
:'''walterbender''' mchua: well, we need to talk about where we think we'll be at 1.0 in more concrete terms...
:'''tomeu''' mchua: stating what we want sugar 1.0 look like?
:'''walterbender''' lfaraone: not yet
:'''lfaraone''' cjb: not afaict. school is closed today, so I can't follow up with Jeff at the career center.
:'''tomeu''' features, stability, API, etc
:'''walterbender''' I have nothing else on the agenda...
:'''cjb''' lfaraone: righto, thanks
:'''lfaraone''' cjb: they were supposed to ship wed, so we're looking at mon/tues
:'''SeanDaly''' I see 2 key goals for SL in 2010:
1) fundraising
2) a website with the Sugar interface so anyone can try online
:'''walterbender''' could we take it as an action for everyone to review the goals list and make changes?
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: +1
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: have you seen the Paraguay site?
:'''SeanDaly''' yes, I did... an excellent idea
:'''CanoeBerry''' 3) less lawyers (but we all still love Andriani Ferti & the many lawyers helping us bravely)
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: it is done in Flash, but I bet I could do it in straight CSS
:'''SeanDaly''' we have an install barrier and an unfamiliarity barrier... website solves both, generates enough interest for download
:'''walterbender''' #action Everyone will review the Goals for 2010 for next time.
:'''mchua''' walterbender: more concrete terms for what, though? design, technical specs, deployability, features, activities, mechanisms-of-participation... ? what's the scope?
:'''walterbender''' OK... time is about up.
I am traveling next week and may or may not be able to get on line. Shall we plan to meet again in two weeks?
:'''mchua''' worksforme.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: in CSS and running on the iPad :D
:'''CanoeBerry''' +1
:'''walterbender''' that would give cjb and SeanDaly more time.
:'''SeanDaly''' true
:'''cjb''' ok
:'''walterbender''' OK. Next meeting on the 19th.
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly, walterbender: do you mind if I mail Karen about automatic trademarks?
:'''mchua''' I wrote up my goals stuff at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Goals_2010, so I'll assume I've done my homework in advance already unless otherwise notified. ;)
:'''walterbender''' cjb: by all means, please contact her
:'''cjb''' just to see whether she has any preference on how enforceable they are
thanks
:'''walterbender''' OK.
:'''CanoeBerry''' ANNC: deployment presentation this Sunday 12 Noon @ OLPC by Vietnam Volunteer Nancie Severs.
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: you mean if they can possibly work ;-) sure
* mchua has a SoaS pilot to start up, will be mildly hosed next week.
:'''walterbender''' thanks everyone.
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: yeah :)
:'''CanoeBerry''' Join in person or by phone if you can!!!
:'''walterbender''' #endmeeting
:'''meeting''' Meeting finished at 12:06.
Logs available at http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/
:'''walterbender''' CanoeBerry: cannot join you in NYC :(
:'''CanoeBerry''' RSVP Required: Write holt @ laptop . org
OK, Sunday's meeting is Boston, can you make it?
12 Noon @ OLPC
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: keep in mind enforceability not the only criteria - we need to be in contact with our deployments to grow ecosystem & get feedback
:'''walterbender''' mchua: re your third goal, we have the offer of Miami. We need to decide when.
:'''SeanDaly''' in touch with deployments=reduced possibility of failure
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: right; but it's the only criterion that we need Karen's input on
:'''walterbender''' mchua: could you add your metagoal of individuals setting and announcing goals to the wiki page and perhaps start a link to individual goals?
:'''SeanDaly''' failed deployments=very bad for image
:'''walterbender''' hi
it is about that time :)
is bernie here?
anyone besides tomeu actually listening?
:'''SeanDaly''' helooo?
:'''walterbender''' do we have quorum? We only have 3 so far
:'''tomeu''' cjb, mchua, CanoeBerry: ping
:'''walterbender''' we can chat in the meantime.
I had a long talk with the GeoGebra team this morning...
:'''cjb''' morning
:'''walterbender''' They are excited about getting their activity running on Sugar... but it will finally force the issue of getting decent Java support running...
ah. quorum...
:'''#'''startmeeting
:'''meeting''' Meeting started at 11:05 UTC. The chair is walterbender.
Commands Available: #TOPIC, #IDEA, #ACTION, #AGREED, #LINK
:'''walterbender''' A quick roll call:
* walterbender here
* SeanDaly here
* cjb here
* tomeu as well
:'''walterbender''' I hope mchua pops in for the GSoC discussion
meanwhile, shall we start with the usual: Trademarks?
:'''#'''topic update on TM discussion
:'''SeanDaly''' I had a message from Joe Raftery, but he edited my wiki page instead of sending a mail, he asked a question but I can't reach him
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: anything worth summarizing from the discussions on the lists?
:'''SeanDaly''' I think there's a concern that the procedure will be complex
I think it should be policy for approval to be fast-track for FOSS projects,
:'''cjb''' walterbender: I think everyone who commented was against the idea that we need more strict trademark rules than the other free software projects we've been comparing ourselves to
:'''SeanDaly''' and deeper review for commercial partners
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: do we have any specific language to propose?
:'''SeanDaly''' well, there were two comments... and no reply to my reply
Not today I'm afraid since I was wiped out from l'Atelier OLPC France day (which went very well)
But, it's clearer and clearer to me how I think it should work
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: it is great that the atelier went well...
:'''SeanDaly''' yes I will brief SLOBs on great contacts in separate mail
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly, cjb: maybe the next step is for the two of you to work together on some new langauge to post to the lists...
:'''SeanDaly''' my pres. appreciated and will be published by OLPC France
back on topic: two things
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: (we need to follow up re Rotary one of these days too.)
:'''SeanDaly''' re other FOSS projects: the only one I'm interested in comparing with is a successful one
walterbender: true
Mozilla has been very successful with branding
However, that doesn't mean we need to carbon copy their policy
I'd like to emulate Dolby and Intel, but without the fees
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly cjb: it seems the two of you are representative of the diversity of opinions, so if you can reach consensus, it will prob. be a good position.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: sounds good
:'''cjb''' walterbender: ok
not sure what a concrete next step should be, though
:'''walterbender''' would you have time over the next week?
:'''SeanDaly''' second point: in light of my first point, are we sure we never want to charge commercial partners?
:'''cjb''' I'm interested in whether it's possible to use automatic revocation upon non-compliance in trademark licenses
but I don't know how to find an answer to that
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: it sure is, but the question is enforcement
:'''walterbender''' cjb: the goal is something simple and inviting for FOSS projects while maintaining some degree of oversight (as required by TM law and by our community standards)
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: surely if we don't have any enforcement available, it doesn't matter what the policy says?
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: we do have enforcement
-->| aniN (~anin@220.225.125.245) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''cjb''' ah. what exactly is the question, then?
:'''SeanDaly''' but just because the law says somebody can't steal a car, I won't leave a car running unattended with the keys in the ignition
:'''cjb''' I don't have any strong opinions on whether we should charge commercial partners, by the way :)
:'''SeanDaly''' re commercial partners: my instinct is to leave it open... it could be a very useful revenue stream even if peanuts per station
:'''cjb''' except that we are very small, and the groups we occasionally try and compare ourselves to (whether Mozilla or Dolby) are very big, and if you become as onerous to work with as a very big organization while you're still a small organization, you don't find as many people to work with.
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: the question is, how do you make the policy strong enough that anyone tempted to flout it will likely lose in court
:'''cjb''' so I'd be concerned about charging for marks as a strategic question -- will this create the largest ecosystem or not -- but nothing more than that.
:'''tomeu''' about charging partners, I think I have heard from martin langhoff about how moodle does it
:'''walterbender''' can we put aside the question of whether or not we charge people... that is seemingly orthogonal and yet another can of worms.
:'''tomeu''' not sure how well fares the moodle brand, though ;)
:'''SeanDaly''' tomeu: moodle brand not known by public, but well-known among educators by word-of-mouth
I believe they have a rather restrictive partner policy: 2 per country
:'''cjb''' wow, that is a surprising policy
:'''walterbender''' well, keeping in mind that we need more mindshare from educators...
:'''tomeu''' SeanDaly: not sure if they consider general public awareness as so important
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: yes. 2 per region.
:'''SeanDaly''' dfarning had briefed me on them a while back
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: (I had briefed dfarning based on a briefing from martin :) )
:'''SeanDaly''' :D
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: would it make sense to put a question in to Karen asking whether they've ever seen a GPL-like trademark license, and if they feel comfortable defending it?
:'''mchua''' GAH. I'm actually here, irssi didn't highlight the window. caught up on backlog though.
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: I am sure Martin would be willing to share his experiences with you.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: which martin again?
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: Langhoff
:'''SeanDaly''' ok
:'''tomeu''' he has been thinking about sustainability and partners for a while, I think SeanDaly might find interesting his opinions
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: well, their role is to defend our copyright, trademarks etc.
:'''walterbender''' for the sake of keeping on schedule, can we take it as an #action that cjb and SeanDaly will congress and come up with some new language?
:'''SeanDaly''' tomeu: yes, I discussed that with him last I was in Brussels
:'''walterbender''' and run it past the lists?
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: right, but they clearly have preferences on how they like to do that
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: sounds good
:'''tomeu''' ah, ok
:'''cjb''' maybe they will say "we think automatic trademark licenses don't work and we don't want to use them"
and that would be useful to hear
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: Karen said: "decide what you want & we will write the language"
* tomeu thanks cjb and SeanDaly for taking this unsexy task
:'''cjb''' ok, we'll work on it :)
:'''walterbender''' #action cjb and SeanDaly will draft some new TM and run it past the community for review.
:'''SeanDaly''' it's like sowing seeds in the rough: odds against us to get it right, but worth the effort
:'''cjb''' (I don't think we will have new policy ready for next week, though, given that we're still a bit far away philosophically.)
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: actually, I think that the two of you are the right ones...
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: well, a fair policy for FOSS projects with fast-track approval - what's not to like? :D
:'''walterbender''' we are never going to all agree on ever detail, but if we can find something we can all work with productively...
let's run through a few other agenda items in the meantime.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: after plain English policy will be legal doc by Karen, so still a ways to go...
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: as long as we are moving towards the goal.
On a related topic, we have a few new TM requests that have come in this week.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: top-of-mind! :D
I'm especially interested in openSUSE case
:'''walterbender''' Paraguay would like to use our mark and become some flavor of Sugar Lab...
they'd like an agreement from us.
:'''SeanDaly''' we don't have a way of recognizing "official" local labs do we?
a procedure even?
:'''walterbender''' Well, we are somewhat mired at the moment.
we had a process in place before the TM debate
but the TM debate seems to superceed it.
:'''SeanDaly''' yes, related...
:'''tomeu''' may be interesting to move forward with SLs argentina, in sight of recent news
:'''walterbender''' They are an ideal partner--strong in both pedagogy and technology and very strongly aligned with FOSS
:'''cjb''' tomeu: what's the recent news?
:'''walterbender''' if we cannot come up with a policy that expedites such requests, we are doing the wrong thing.
:'''tomeu''' cjb: 60k xo-1.5 in la rioja
:'''cjb''' cool, hadn't seen that number
:'''dogi''' :)
:'''tomeu''' arboleda was nice enough to mention sugar to the press
:'''cjb''' nice, got a url?
:'''tomeu''' there's a thread in iaep, and I have just blogged about it
:'''SeanDaly''' http://tecnologia.iprofesional.com/notas/93943-La-PC-barata-de-Negroponte-desembarca-en-la-Argentina-para-pelear-contra-Intel.html
:'''walterbender''' it was in email today...
:'''cjb''' thanks
:'''tomeu''' the article is better than its title
:'''SeanDaly''' this is precisely why I wish to coordinate PR & marketing with OLPC-F and especially OLPC-A
I have pinged Rodrigo again
more Sugar, less tech spex
:'''walterbender''' Anyway, I'll let Cecilia know that we are working on something for Paraguay...
* lfaraone waves.
:'''walterbender''' OK. Can we talk about GSoC?
:'''tomeu''' I count on paraguay educa to help other countries work together in sugar
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender:re expedite requests: I fully agree
hey just heard back from Rodrigo - looks like we will start coordinating!!
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: great...
:'''tomeu''' about gsoc, I'm personally going to focus my time on other contributors such as from downstreams
:'''walterbender''' #topic gsoc
:'''tomeu''' gsoc students have taken lots of my time in past editions
and I'm not sure it was really worth it, compared to other contributors
:'''mchua''' Do we know what sorts of things we'd want gsoc students to take on this summer? Is this the best use of our time?
:'''cjb''' tomeu: yeah, I see where you're coming from
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: I agree that that may be the best use of your time, but gsoc is useful in many ways, IMHO
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: sure, not saying otherwise
:'''walterbender''' Some people really enjoy mentoring students
:'''mchua''' my question is "who's going to step up to run this?"
:'''cjb''' well, one nice thing about gsoc is that it forces us to write down stuff we'd like other people to help with
:'''walterbender''' and some students, even if their project is not viable, go on to be community members
cjb: yes... it enforces a certain discipline
and it is a right of passage for a FOSS project
it keeps us in the broader community eye
:'''tomeu''' maybe activities would be more appropriate for gsoc?
:'''CanoeBerry''' Apologies for the very late arrival.
:'''walterbender''' for example, just this morning, GeoGebra was talk about getting involved with us on GSoC...
hi Adam
:'''CanoeBerry''' Ciao Todos
:'''walterbender''' Adam: need a backlog?
:'''CanoeBerry''' I'm OK, reading..
:'''walterbender''' But we should be careful about burning up key resources...
:'''dogi''' http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/sugar-meeting.log.20100205_1105.html
:'''walterbender''' I think we tied to tackle projects with too large of a scope last year...
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: +1
also, there's a very wide range of experience and capabilities in students
:'''walterbender''' but the first step is to decide (1) do we apply this year and (2) is yes, who is the team?
:'''tomeu''' we should match better projects with individuals
:'''mchua''' walterbender: I think the questions need to be the other way around.
:'''cjb''' :)
:'''walterbender''' Well, I asked the questions together for a purpose...
:'''tomeu''' yeah, I guess nobody is opposed to gsoc in principle?
:'''cjb''' I'd like to see us apply but have frankly no intention of helping. sorry. :)
:'''mchua''' (1) who, if anyone, is interested in leading the sl gsoc charge this year? (2) do we feel comfortable selecting a team/lead from those who volunteered and handing this responsibility to them, pretty much completely?
* mchua has no objections to applying, but has no further hands to lend for it this summer.
:'''walterbender''' I so far have heard from one person... Tim McNamara
:'''cjb''' perhaps we should post to iaep asking for volunteers to lead?
there was Jameson (and mchua) last year
:'''walterbender''' cjb: I've asked twice, both times buried on the Sugar Digest
:'''cjb''' ah, sorry.
* mchua cleaning up a stub page for that right now, will be ready in ~5m
:'''cjb''' I do read them :-)
:'''mchua''' Yeah, I saw the mentions but they may have been lost inline for most readers.
:'''walterbender''' cjb: well, it is obvious that I haven't done a good job getting the word out...
I'll work with Tim and try to pull in some more help.
mchua: the materials we prepared last year should mostly be relevant for this year.
* mchua nods.
:'''walterbender''' #action Walter to be more aggressive about assembling a team for GSoC
Any other suggestions re this topic?
OK. well, I have my action item.
The final topic on today's agenda is to review our goals for 2010.
:'''#'''topic Goals for 2010
I wrote a first draft for comment...
* walterbender looks for the URL
:'''CanoeBerry''' Side Comment about Tim McNamara..
He's 100% awesome and helping me lead QA back on track.
Where we can help.
The Sri Lankan team is very serious.
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: hmm, maybe next development team meeting could be about QA?
:'''walterbender''' http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Oversight_Board/Meeting_Minutes-2010-01-22#Goals_for_2010_2
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: we have so much to improve there...
:'''CanoeBerry''' tomeu: might take us 2+ weeks to get organized, but yes.
:'''walterbender''' CanoeBerry: thanks... that is great feedback.
:'''mchua''' walterbender: re gsoc, how does shouting-out http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code sound?
:'''tomeu''' CanoeBerry: ok, I'm very interested, please ping me when you have more news
:'''mchua''' CanoeBerry: in fact, please ping iaep
:'''CanoeBerry''' Will do.
* tomeu reads proposed goals
:'''mchua''' walterbender: (note that I set an arbitrary date of feb 17 for announcing interest deadline, so we can pick a coordinator 2 meetings from now)
:'''walterbender''' re goals, they are all pretty generic and not easy to measure...
:'''tomeu''' is it REL or RHEL?
:'''cjb''' it's RHEL
pronounced our-hell :)
:'''tomeu''' :D
:'''walterbender''' regardless of the spelling, that will be an up-hill battle...
not technically, but in terms of the RHEL goals...
:'''mchua''' What can be done to make it easier?
:'''cjb''' yes, similar to the three-year-old battles at OLPC about what the software base would be
we rejected RHEL then because we knew we needed newer software than it provides
so I don't really understand why we think we might be a good idea now :)
* mchua was curious about that one too.
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: not sure how well it is covered by your proposal, but I planned to keep focusing on bringing more downstream people into sugar development: olpc deployments, igalia, davidfarning's initiative, etc
I think we care specially because of LTSP deployments in schools?
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: please add some new langauge
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: will do
* mchua wrote up her homework here:
:'''mchua''' #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Goals_2010
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: do we need to do anything special regarding RHEL?
it is similar to how olpc decides that their next release will be f11 with 0.84
:'''mchua''' tomeu: "package things for EPEL," aiui.
:'''walterbender''' cjb: re RHEL... It seems to me that offering a distro-based solution with an expected lifetime measured in multiple years would be desirable for our deployments.
:'''tomeu''' mchua: won't they sync packages from the corresponding fedora version?
:'''walterbender''' cjb: 3-years ago, Sugar wasn't ready... but I can anticipate being there soon... but maybe we are still 1 year too soon.
:'''SeanDaly''' actually, our six-month schedule means we will always be ahead of deployments; yet, it's a good rhythm for improving quickly
a very stable Sugar would guarantee our success
:'''mchua''' tomeu: (again, aiui) what we'd want to do is have Sugar stuff packaged in the EPEL (extra packages for enterprise linux) repositories, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: maybe we shouldn't worry too much about this RHEL and rather worry about the next one
:'''cjb''' walterbender: oh, you're talking about a *future* RHEL release?
:'''SeanDaly''' while an unstable Sugar will need even better marketing :D :D
:'''mchua''' tomeu: and that usually means "take the Fedora package, rebuild it against RHEL"
:'''tomeu''' cjb: yup
:'''cjb''' ahh
when is that scheduled for?
:'''tomeu''' mchua: right, so no big deal, right?
:'''mchua''' tomeu: right, no big deal at all.
:'''cjb''' it's normally only once every 3-4 years, right?
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: I agree. But I think it is important to set as a goal Sugar on a stable platform... maybe for 2011?
:'''mchua''' tomeu: I mean, we might want to do some testing, don't know if we have the resources for that sort of QA to be done right
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: sounds good to discuss how would sugar 1.0 would look like
:'''CanoeBerry''' INVITE: Will anybody here be joining Gerald Ardito & I our OLPC/Sugar/Haiti Creole Dinner Saturday NYC 5:30? Co-hosted with NYC's Haiti Crisis Camp. Please let me know!
http://kombitrestaurant.com
:'''tomeu''' I can see RHEL being a big deal for us if whatever version we had in the corresponding fedora release wasn't what we wanted in a stable distro
:'''SeanDaly''' might make more sense to imagine a major deployment as being the v1.0
:'''mchua''' cjb: There's no "when will the next RHEL" release date out yet but it's starting to get close to that time in the (multi-year) cycle
:'''CanoeBerry''' "Kombit" is the Creole word for volunteerism/collaboration..
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: maybe if we have a clean picture of Sugar 1.0, then we can be more attractive to the RHELs of the world.
:'''SeanDaly''' with QA resources to match
:'''tomeu''' but maybe we don't need to worry so much right now
walterbender: makes sense
SeanDaly: yeah, very important
:'''cjb''' mchua: ok. but we don't have to do anything special for it other than getting our packages working well in Fedora, I'm guessing
:'''walterbender''' so I will take it off the list of goals for 2010
:'''cjb''' because a RHEL release is based on a Fedora release
:'''SeanDaly''' another way to look at it is working back from OEM viewpoint
:'''mchua''' cjb: Yeah, I see "have packages working well in Fedora" as "and now it's easy to get them working in RHEL!" prerequisites when we're ready for that next step.
:'''SeanDaly''' what distro(s) referenced?
:'''cjb''' walterbender: I think it's okay for it to be a goal; working with the *next* RHEL is going to be very easy (zero effort), and working with the current RHEL would be almost impossibly hard.
:'''SeanDaly''' How does Sugar run on that distro?
:'''mchua''' cjb: and the step after that is "now that they're packaged (in EPEL) for RHEL, let's QA the living daylights out of it" which is an open question re: resources imo.
...but comes along much later. perhaps even next year.
:'''walterbender''' new wording: Define Sugar 1.0 so that we can begin partnering with long-term stable distros, such as RHEL
:'''tomeu''' cjb: not impossible for alsroot ;)
:'''SeanDaly''' to me it's more an event-triggered thing that a planned schedule thing... I mean, if Intel wanted to reference Sugar for the CMPC in 2010 on Mandriva, that would seem to me to become a priority, no?
:'''tomeu''' (he retro-fitted sugar in quite old mandriva and ubuntu derivatives)
:'''walterbender''' tomeu: maybe a goal should be to clone alsroot :)
:'''mchua''' walterbender: what's involved in "defining sugar 1.0"? (for those curious readers looking in for the first time with little context on the day-to-day of SL)
:'''tomeu''' heh
:'''cjb''' looks like we have 2 mins, folks
anything else?
lfaraone, walterbender: did the WMF servers arrive?
:'''walterbender''' mchua: well, we need to talk about where we think we'll be at 1.0 in more concrete terms...
:'''tomeu''' mchua: stating what we want sugar 1.0 look like?
:'''walterbender''' lfaraone: not yet
:'''lfaraone''' cjb: not afaict. school is closed today, so I can't follow up with Jeff at the career center.
:'''tomeu''' features, stability, API, etc
:'''walterbender''' I have nothing else on the agenda...
:'''cjb''' lfaraone: righto, thanks
:'''lfaraone''' cjb: they were supposed to ship wed, so we're looking at mon/tues
:'''SeanDaly''' I see 2 key goals for SL in 2010:
1) fundraising
2) a website with the Sugar interface so anyone can try online
:'''walterbender''' could we take it as an action for everyone to review the goals list and make changes?
:'''tomeu''' walterbender: +1
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: have you seen the Paraguay site?
:'''SeanDaly''' yes, I did... an excellent idea
:'''CanoeBerry''' 3) less lawyers (but we all still love Andriani Ferti & the many lawyers helping us bravely)
:'''walterbender''' SeanDaly: it is done in Flash, but I bet I could do it in straight CSS
:'''SeanDaly''' we have an install barrier and an unfamiliarity barrier... website solves both, generates enough interest for download
:'''walterbender''' #action Everyone will review the Goals for 2010 for next time.
:'''mchua''' walterbender: more concrete terms for what, though? design, technical specs, deployability, features, activities, mechanisms-of-participation... ? what's the scope?
:'''walterbender''' OK... time is about up.
I am traveling next week and may or may not be able to get on line. Shall we plan to meet again in two weeks?
:'''mchua''' worksforme.
:'''SeanDaly''' walterbender: in CSS and running on the iPad :D
:'''CanoeBerry''' +1
:'''walterbender''' that would give cjb and SeanDaly more time.
:'''SeanDaly''' true
:'''cjb''' ok
:'''walterbender''' OK. Next meeting on the 19th.
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly, walterbender: do you mind if I mail Karen about automatic trademarks?
:'''mchua''' I wrote up my goals stuff at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Goals_2010, so I'll assume I've done my homework in advance already unless otherwise notified. ;)
:'''walterbender''' cjb: by all means, please contact her
:'''cjb''' just to see whether she has any preference on how enforceable they are
thanks
:'''walterbender''' OK.
:'''CanoeBerry''' ANNC: deployment presentation this Sunday 12 Noon @ OLPC by Vietnam Volunteer Nancie Severs.
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: you mean if they can possibly work ;-) sure
* mchua has a SoaS pilot to start up, will be mildly hosed next week.
:'''walterbender''' thanks everyone.
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: yeah :)
:'''CanoeBerry''' Join in person or by phone if you can!!!
:'''walterbender''' #endmeeting
:'''meeting''' Meeting finished at 12:06.
Logs available at http://me.etin.gs/sugar-meeting/
:'''walterbender''' CanoeBerry: cannot join you in NYC :(
:'''CanoeBerry''' RSVP Required: Write holt @ laptop . org
OK, Sunday's meeting is Boston, can you make it?
12 Noon @ OLPC
:'''SeanDaly''' cjb: keep in mind enforceability not the only criteria - we need to be in contact with our deployments to grow ecosystem & get feedback
:'''walterbender''' mchua: re your third goal, we have the offer of Miami. We need to decide when.
:'''SeanDaly''' in touch with deployments=reduced possibility of failure
:'''cjb''' SeanDaly: right; but it's the only criterion that we need Karen's input on
:'''walterbender''' mchua: could you add your metagoal of individuals setting and announcing goals to the wiki page and perhaps start a link to individual goals?
:'''SeanDaly''' failed deployments=very bad for image