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Oversight Board/Meeting Log Addendum-2011-12-02 (view source)
Revision as of 13:37, 2 December 2011
, 13:37, 2 December 2011Created page with "== Post meeting discussion == :'''walterbender''': bkuhn, keynote2k: please let me know how I can help further re the TM issue :'''Icarito-d234''': if it will make it clearer, w..."
== Post meeting discussion ==
:'''walterbender''': bkuhn, keynote2k: please let me know how I can help further re the TM issue
:'''Icarito-d234''': if it will make it clearer, we're trying to avoid to replicate the governance and oversight structures locally
:'''walterbender''': or if you need more info from SL
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but the governance and oversight you need for your contract are vastly different than the structure at the SFC
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we don't need these for the contract!
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we need them because they are useful
:'''Icarito-d234''': it's useful to have oversight
:'''Icarito-d234''': a process
:'''kaametza''': walterbender: congrats for getting re-elected1
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: thanks...
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:'''|<--''': raffael has left freenode ()
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but SFC is seemingly not in the position to provide that oversight
:'''Icarito-d234''': oversight is the role of SLOBs
:'''Icarito-d234''': SFC would provide fiscal sponsorship
:'''Icarito-d234''': we would like to operate as Sugar Labs
:'''Icarito-d234''': a Sugar Labs team
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: we are going around in circles... you just said: we don't need these for the contract!
:'''Icarito-d234''': this way we don't have to worry about locally replicating governance
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes its not a contract requirement to work directly with Sugar Labs
:'''kaametza''': walter, we need to provide income to the communiy
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are a group of individuals who want to do a contract... or so I understand
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: of sugar labs members
:'''kaametza''': how we do it, is the main challenge
:'''cjl''': kaametza: Income is a tricky issue for a non-profit.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: how does the SFC help you with that goal?
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it's not tricky at all
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: it seems to me SFC hinders you
:'''walterbender''': because it is constained
:'''walterbender''': ^constrained
:'''kaametza''': as a non profit you can provide sevices
:'''Icarito-d234''': we're willing to abide by the constraints to avoid having to replicate structures which is more overhead
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: that is not the issue. it is the oversight question and one of logisitcs: they (SFC) has no presence outside of the US, so they cannot not move quickly for these types of issues
:'''kaametza''': walter, I understand the SFC agreement is supposed to enable SL to get in contractual relationships
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: I think Tony was pretty clear on that topic
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234 but you are still not answering the question... what services and why?
:'''-->|''': jt4sugar (~jtsugar@d192-24-234-153.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''kaametza''': we'll have to read again
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we're working on documentation too: *Mission*
:'''Icarito-d234''': To measure and improve the user experience of learners from Puno-Region by localizing, distributing and supporting software based on their needs and conditions.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: the SFC and hence SL has a very narrow formal agenda... SL community members have many diverse agendas
:'''Icarito-d234''': *Main Objective*
:'''Icarito-d234''': Field Testing + User Support + Product Development
:'''Icarito-d234''': all of these processes feed into each other
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: as long as our agendas align in SFC and SL missions, it would be fine, as I understand it
:'''-->|''': CanoeBerry (~CanoeBerr@190.196.202.215) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''Icarito-d234''': *align with
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are mixing apples and oranges.
:'''kaametza''': I personally believe SL should include sustainability in the agenda
:'''walterbender''': there is the TM issue, for which the jury is still out, and there is the contract issue
:'''Icarito-d234''': it is true its not volunteers who work on sugar
:'''Icarito-d234''': not really
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: Can you explain that?
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we've read the TM policy and that's fine for us too
:'''Icarito-d234''': cjl: sugar environment is developed by professional developers under contract for third parties
:'''kaametza''': we will support Sugar learners in the Puno region
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but those developers are not SL employees
:'''kaametza''': we will get paid
:'''kaametza''':
:'''cjl''': But that work is donated t oSugar Labs on a voluntary basis
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: exactly but characterizing them as volunteers is not accurate either
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are putting words in my mouth
:'''kaametza''': so we just needto figure out the securest way
:'''Icarito-d234''': so it is in the best interest of Sugar Labs to have people working and earning their living by developing, supporting and extending sugar
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: No one is disputing that
:'''Icarito-d234''': i'm just stressing kaametza's point that SL should be concerned about sustainability
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: sure... but it is not at all clear that SFC as a contract agent is the answer
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: so we're open to other options
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: as Bradley pointed out, the typical model is for individuals and third-parties to do contract work
:'''walterbender''': which everyone supports as a model
:'''cjl''': But note that (for example) Activity Central is an independent organization that takes on it's own legal liabilities.
:'''walterbender''': so the community members can sustain themselves
:'''walterbender''': so is OLPCA
:'''Icarito-d234''': we believe it would be in the best interest of SL to be involved in the deployment process
:'''walterbender''': and so are other organizations that contribute to SL: ceibal, paraguay educa...
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: we are involved in deployments all over the world
:'''walterbender''': but through 3rd party contracts
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: none of these organizations have SL's interests and transparency policies
:'''Icarito-d234''': and this is hindering the user's experience with Sugar
:'''walterbender''': perhaps
:'''walterbender''': so why not set up a model of how to do it correctly?
:'''Icarito-d234''': at least from a R&D point of view, SL should be involved in deployments
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you keep implying that we are not...
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: SL is a model to do it correctly
:'''Icarito-d234''': why replicate efforts?
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but that model has constraints due to the relationship with the SFC
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: SL has limitations on what it can and cannot do that third parties do not have.
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: so let's work with those constraints which are under negotiation
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: if, for example, you want SL oversight, then invite SL members to be on your board
:'''walterbender''': but it seems like an uphill battle to avoid "replicating efforts"
:'''kaametza''': we ensamble a team that is already working
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: great
:'''kaametza''': yes i know
:'''kaametza''': we also have a customer
:'''kaametza''': great too, right?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: you "know" what?
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we don't have a board and would like to avoid having to have one
:'''kaametza''': that it's great
:'''kaametza''': :o)
:'''kaametza''': we'll procure sustainablity for the team
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: I think you need to come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': sorry, sebastian had to take care of mariana [our baby]
:'''kaametza''': we'll be back in a sec
:'''bkuhn''': Ok, I went idle for a while there. I read the backlog up until now. I don't have much to add that walterbender and cjl haven't already said, and I need to move on to other action items for other Conservancy projects for the rest of the day. So I'm going to /part now.
:'''<--|''': bkuhn has left #sugar-meeting ("off to other things")
:'''cjl''': Does EscueLab Puno have a formal status, are they a company, are they a Peruvian established NGO (within applicable local law)?
:'''kaametza''': cjl: they are getting soon
:'''keynote2k''': I'm also going to take off. walterbender: we'll reach out to local labs to learn about how they're structured.
:'''keynote2k''': Have a great weekend all.
:'''<--|''': keynote2k has left #sugar-meeting
:'''kaametza''': keynote2k; thanks, you too
:'''walterbender''': ciao tony
:'''kaametza''': thank y
:'''cjl''': kaametza: Part of what I am trying to understand is that if EscueLab Puno is being created, why does there need to be another contract involved. Why can't the individual Sugar Labs members participate in EscueLab Puno bringing their expertise wit hSugar?
:'''satellit_''': note that I am an unpaid volunteer for sugarlabs. Retired and glad to help....
:'''walterbender''': satellit_: we are all unpaid volunteers for Sugar Labsand glad you are among our numbers
:'''walterbender''': needs to leave soon...
:'''satellit_''': : ) we do exist
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it can be done directly, we're just trying to stablish a model for teams sustainability
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234, kaametza: can you please take a stab at my to do ^^?
:'''kaametza''': Sugar Labs Teams I mean
:'''walterbender''': and we can discuss it next time?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: I appreciate the concern for sustainability, but I am not sure you are attacking the right place in the problem space.
:'''kaametza''': sorr walter, don't understand " take
:'''kaametza''': a stab a my to do
:'''kaametza''': "
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: please come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': I sent an email yesterday to SLOB's
:'''cjl''': kaametza: I think that part of the challenge that OLPC has faced was an attempt to maintain centrality. I think that sustainability for deployments necessarily involves independent operations tha appropriate Sugar and OLCP for their own goals.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: it is not clear to me the advantage of sustaining a Sugar Labs team vs the individuals on the team
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: we talked ad nausium about your question and have questions for you
:'''kaametza''': cjl: that's why theescuelab puno figure is been formed
:'''kaametza''': cjl: still, there is a need for legal representation to the providor of the software support
:'''kaametza''': in this case the "Puno Pilot Deployment Team"
:'''kaametza''': a Sugar Lbs Team
:'''kaametza''': so, regional gobenement contracts wih escuelab puno a set of services
:'''kaametza''': then escuelab puno contrats technical support with Sugar Labs
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes escuelab puno will deal with more than just software support
:'''kaametza''': it's very organic
:'''Icarito-d234''': they will provide training for instance
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:'''cjl''': kaametza: It is perfectly fine for a group of Sugar Labs members together in free association to collaborate, it is another matter for them to enter contractual obligations on behalf of SL.
:'''cjl''': It if fine for them to gather for commercial purposes as well, but not under the "Sugar Labs" banner.
:'''kaametza''': cjl: why not/
:'''kaametza''': ?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: for the reasons that bradley and tony said in the meeting
:'''cjl''': In spite of your contention that income is easy for non-profits, it is not. This is one of the reasons tha OLPC cannot get into the business of sellign individual units.
:'''cjl''': Providing services under contract is a "commercial activity" under applicable US law. Non-profits have to tread very carefully with commercial activity and hopw an dwhere the money flows.
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it's a diferent problem, I'm talkng about the accountablity of "professional services"
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes that is what the mission is about, not for profit
:'''kaametza''': it's doable
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:'''Icarito-d234''': the service is in the public good
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:'''kaametza''': since it is in line with the main reason for the non-profit: free software distribution
:'''cjl''': kaametza: If you wanted to do it for free, it would be no problem, but you want to get paid to do it. This brings in other considerations about permissable activities for 501(c)3 entities under US tax code.
:'''kaametza''': I have read the documentation
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234 : I think we need to let Tony answer these questions... it is ultimately about how the SFC interprets the law...
:'''cjl''': Yes I can say that the work doene benefits the community and the mission, but if the money flows t oan individual, that is a commercial activity.
:'''kaametza''': and in my unerstanding it is doable, still I made the public questions to slob's so thy could adress them to the SFC
:'''cjl''': kaametza: I think walter is saying that they are not quite specific enough. Lawyers do not answer "general questions".
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234: so again, I suggest that you please come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': cjl: we are trying to stablish a procedure to get a sustainability model for active sugar members
:'''cjl''': lawters need to see very detailed information, in an ideal world, a draft of a contract, or at least an outline of the entitiesd involved, their legal statuses and the proposed arrangements.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: yes. so you have said... but the details are missing
:'''cjl''': kaametza: You keep on wsaying that and that is a good thing, but the devil is in the details
:'''cjl''': sustainability is not a magic wand you can wave t omake legal issues go away because you mean well. The structures and arrangements must be detailed enouigh for a lawyer to offer suggested changes in the language.
:'''kaametza''': walterbender: we needed the answers to the questions presented in order to evaluate how do we need to documentate the details
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: you got an answer: no.
:'''cjl''': Services contracts are (in general) painful. I have entered into many on behalf of my employers in the past and they are routinely quite a hassle to get past lawyers/contracting agents.
:'''kaametza''': procedures and documentation
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: but you also got an opening: if you can be concrete about a specific request
:'''walterbender''': needs to go. back later
:'''walterbender''': bkuhn, keynote2k: please let me know how I can help further re the TM issue
:'''Icarito-d234''': if it will make it clearer, we're trying to avoid to replicate the governance and oversight structures locally
:'''walterbender''': or if you need more info from SL
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but the governance and oversight you need for your contract are vastly different than the structure at the SFC
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we don't need these for the contract!
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we need them because they are useful
:'''Icarito-d234''': it's useful to have oversight
:'''Icarito-d234''': a process
:'''kaametza''': walterbender: congrats for getting re-elected1
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: thanks...
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:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but SFC is seemingly not in the position to provide that oversight
:'''Icarito-d234''': oversight is the role of SLOBs
:'''Icarito-d234''': SFC would provide fiscal sponsorship
:'''Icarito-d234''': we would like to operate as Sugar Labs
:'''Icarito-d234''': a Sugar Labs team
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: we are going around in circles... you just said: we don't need these for the contract!
:'''Icarito-d234''': this way we don't have to worry about locally replicating governance
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes its not a contract requirement to work directly with Sugar Labs
:'''kaametza''': walter, we need to provide income to the communiy
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are a group of individuals who want to do a contract... or so I understand
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: of sugar labs members
:'''kaametza''': how we do it, is the main challenge
:'''cjl''': kaametza: Income is a tricky issue for a non-profit.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: how does the SFC help you with that goal?
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it's not tricky at all
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: it seems to me SFC hinders you
:'''walterbender''': because it is constained
:'''walterbender''': ^constrained
:'''kaametza''': as a non profit you can provide sevices
:'''Icarito-d234''': we're willing to abide by the constraints to avoid having to replicate structures which is more overhead
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: that is not the issue. it is the oversight question and one of logisitcs: they (SFC) has no presence outside of the US, so they cannot not move quickly for these types of issues
:'''kaametza''': walter, I understand the SFC agreement is supposed to enable SL to get in contractual relationships
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: I think Tony was pretty clear on that topic
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234 but you are still not answering the question... what services and why?
:'''-->|''': jt4sugar (~jtsugar@d192-24-234-153.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''kaametza''': we'll have to read again
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we're working on documentation too: *Mission*
:'''Icarito-d234''': To measure and improve the user experience of learners from Puno-Region by localizing, distributing and supporting software based on their needs and conditions.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: the SFC and hence SL has a very narrow formal agenda... SL community members have many diverse agendas
:'''Icarito-d234''': *Main Objective*
:'''Icarito-d234''': Field Testing + User Support + Product Development
:'''Icarito-d234''': all of these processes feed into each other
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: as long as our agendas align in SFC and SL missions, it would be fine, as I understand it
:'''-->|''': CanoeBerry (~CanoeBerr@190.196.202.215) has joined #sugar-meeting
:'''Icarito-d234''': *align with
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are mixing apples and oranges.
:'''kaametza''': I personally believe SL should include sustainability in the agenda
:'''walterbender''': there is the TM issue, for which the jury is still out, and there is the contract issue
:'''Icarito-d234''': it is true its not volunteers who work on sugar
:'''Icarito-d234''': not really
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: Can you explain that?
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we've read the TM policy and that's fine for us too
:'''Icarito-d234''': cjl: sugar environment is developed by professional developers under contract for third parties
:'''kaametza''': we will support Sugar learners in the Puno region
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but those developers are not SL employees
:'''kaametza''': we will get paid
:'''kaametza''':
:'''cjl''': But that work is donated t oSugar Labs on a voluntary basis
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: exactly but characterizing them as volunteers is not accurate either
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you are putting words in my mouth
:'''kaametza''': so we just needto figure out the securest way
:'''Icarito-d234''': so it is in the best interest of Sugar Labs to have people working and earning their living by developing, supporting and extending sugar
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: No one is disputing that
:'''Icarito-d234''': i'm just stressing kaametza's point that SL should be concerned about sustainability
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: sure... but it is not at all clear that SFC as a contract agent is the answer
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: so we're open to other options
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: as Bradley pointed out, the typical model is for individuals and third-parties to do contract work
:'''walterbender''': which everyone supports as a model
:'''cjl''': But note that (for example) Activity Central is an independent organization that takes on it's own legal liabilities.
:'''walterbender''': so the community members can sustain themselves
:'''walterbender''': so is OLPCA
:'''Icarito-d234''': we believe it would be in the best interest of SL to be involved in the deployment process
:'''walterbender''': and so are other organizations that contribute to SL: ceibal, paraguay educa...
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: we are involved in deployments all over the world
:'''walterbender''': but through 3rd party contracts
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: none of these organizations have SL's interests and transparency policies
:'''Icarito-d234''': and this is hindering the user's experience with Sugar
:'''walterbender''': perhaps
:'''walterbender''': so why not set up a model of how to do it correctly?
:'''Icarito-d234''': at least from a R&D point of view, SL should be involved in deployments
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: you keep implying that we are not...
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: SL is a model to do it correctly
:'''Icarito-d234''': why replicate efforts?
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: but that model has constraints due to the relationship with the SFC
:'''cjl''': Icarito-d234: SL has limitations on what it can and cannot do that third parties do not have.
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: so let's work with those constraints which are under negotiation
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: if, for example, you want SL oversight, then invite SL members to be on your board
:'''walterbender''': but it seems like an uphill battle to avoid "replicating efforts"
:'''kaametza''': we ensamble a team that is already working
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: great
:'''kaametza''': yes i know
:'''kaametza''': we also have a customer
:'''kaametza''': great too, right?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: you "know" what?
:'''Icarito-d234''': walterbender: we don't have a board and would like to avoid having to have one
:'''kaametza''': that it's great
:'''kaametza''': :o)
:'''kaametza''': we'll procure sustainablity for the team
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234: I think you need to come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': sorry, sebastian had to take care of mariana [our baby]
:'''kaametza''': we'll be back in a sec
:'''bkuhn''': Ok, I went idle for a while there. I read the backlog up until now. I don't have much to add that walterbender and cjl haven't already said, and I need to move on to other action items for other Conservancy projects for the rest of the day. So I'm going to /part now.
:'''<--|''': bkuhn has left #sugar-meeting ("off to other things")
:'''cjl''': Does EscueLab Puno have a formal status, are they a company, are they a Peruvian established NGO (within applicable local law)?
:'''kaametza''': cjl: they are getting soon
:'''keynote2k''': I'm also going to take off. walterbender: we'll reach out to local labs to learn about how they're structured.
:'''keynote2k''': Have a great weekend all.
:'''<--|''': keynote2k has left #sugar-meeting
:'''kaametza''': keynote2k; thanks, you too
:'''walterbender''': ciao tony
:'''kaametza''': thank y
:'''cjl''': kaametza: Part of what I am trying to understand is that if EscueLab Puno is being created, why does there need to be another contract involved. Why can't the individual Sugar Labs members participate in EscueLab Puno bringing their expertise wit hSugar?
:'''satellit_''': note that I am an unpaid volunteer for sugarlabs. Retired and glad to help....
:'''walterbender''': satellit_: we are all unpaid volunteers for Sugar Labsand glad you are among our numbers
:'''walterbender''': needs to leave soon...
:'''satellit_''': : ) we do exist
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it can be done directly, we're just trying to stablish a model for teams sustainability
:'''walterbender''': Icarito-d234, kaametza: can you please take a stab at my to do ^^?
:'''kaametza''': Sugar Labs Teams I mean
:'''walterbender''': and we can discuss it next time?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: I appreciate the concern for sustainability, but I am not sure you are attacking the right place in the problem space.
:'''kaametza''': sorr walter, don't understand " take
:'''kaametza''': a stab a my to do
:'''kaametza''': "
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: please come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': I sent an email yesterday to SLOB's
:'''cjl''': kaametza: I think that part of the challenge that OLPC has faced was an attempt to maintain centrality. I think that sustainability for deployments necessarily involves independent operations tha appropriate Sugar and OLCP for their own goals.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: it is not clear to me the advantage of sustaining a Sugar Labs team vs the individuals on the team
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: we talked ad nausium about your question and have questions for you
:'''kaametza''': cjl: that's why theescuelab puno figure is been formed
:'''kaametza''': cjl: still, there is a need for legal representation to the providor of the software support
:'''kaametza''': in this case the "Puno Pilot Deployment Team"
:'''kaametza''': a Sugar Lbs Team
:'''kaametza''': so, regional gobenement contracts wih escuelab puno a set of services
:'''kaametza''': then escuelab puno contrats technical support with Sugar Labs
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes escuelab puno will deal with more than just software support
:'''kaametza''': it's very organic
:'''Icarito-d234''': they will provide training for instance
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:'''cjl''': kaametza: It is perfectly fine for a group of Sugar Labs members together in free association to collaborate, it is another matter for them to enter contractual obligations on behalf of SL.
:'''cjl''': It if fine for them to gather for commercial purposes as well, but not under the "Sugar Labs" banner.
:'''kaametza''': cjl: why not/
:'''kaametza''': ?
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: for the reasons that bradley and tony said in the meeting
:'''cjl''': In spite of your contention that income is easy for non-profits, it is not. This is one of the reasons tha OLPC cannot get into the business of sellign individual units.
:'''cjl''': Providing services under contract is a "commercial activity" under applicable US law. Non-profits have to tread very carefully with commercial activity and hopw an dwhere the money flows.
:'''kaametza''': cjl: it's a diferent problem, I'm talkng about the accountablity of "professional services"
:'''Icarito-d234''': yes that is what the mission is about, not for profit
:'''kaametza''': it's doable
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:'''Icarito-d234''': the service is in the public good
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:'''kaametza''': since it is in line with the main reason for the non-profit: free software distribution
:'''cjl''': kaametza: If you wanted to do it for free, it would be no problem, but you want to get paid to do it. This brings in other considerations about permissable activities for 501(c)3 entities under US tax code.
:'''kaametza''': I have read the documentation
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234 : I think we need to let Tony answer these questions... it is ultimately about how the SFC interprets the law...
:'''cjl''': Yes I can say that the work doene benefits the community and the mission, but if the money flows t oan individual, that is a commercial activity.
:'''kaametza''': and in my unerstanding it is doable, still I made the public questions to slob's so thy could adress them to the SFC
:'''cjl''': kaametza: I think walter is saying that they are not quite specific enough. Lawyers do not answer "general questions".
:'''walterbender''': kaametza, Icarito-d234: so again, I suggest that you please come up with the list of what you *do* want and what you *don't* want so we can discuss it with the SFC
:'''kaametza''': cjl: we are trying to stablish a procedure to get a sustainability model for active sugar members
:'''cjl''': lawters need to see very detailed information, in an ideal world, a draft of a contract, or at least an outline of the entitiesd involved, their legal statuses and the proposed arrangements.
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: yes. so you have said... but the details are missing
:'''cjl''': kaametza: You keep on wsaying that and that is a good thing, but the devil is in the details
:'''cjl''': sustainability is not a magic wand you can wave t omake legal issues go away because you mean well. The structures and arrangements must be detailed enouigh for a lawyer to offer suggested changes in the language.
:'''kaametza''': walterbender: we needed the answers to the questions presented in order to evaluate how do we need to documentate the details
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: you got an answer: no.
:'''cjl''': Services contracts are (in general) painful. I have entered into many on behalf of my employers in the past and they are routinely quite a hassle to get past lawyers/contracting agents.
:'''kaametza''': procedures and documentation
:'''walterbender''': kaametza: but you also got an opening: if you can be concrete about a specific request
:'''walterbender''': needs to go. back later