Difference between revisions of "Oversight Board/2008/Log-2008-10-31"

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  • Now talking on #sugar-meeting
  • Topic for #sugar-meeting is: The meeting channel for the sugar developers (sugarlabs.org) | see also #sugar | meeting time: thursdays 14.00 UTC
  • Topic for #sugar-meeting set by morgs at Thu Aug 14 07:37:18 2008
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  • gregdek (n=gdk@cpe-024-088-244-139.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #sugar-meeting
<walter> 'morning greg
<_bernie> morning
<walter> ciao Bernardo
<tomeu> hi all!
  • jkridner|work (n=a0321898@nat/ti/x-63592e753150a336) has joined #sugar-meeting
<jkridner|work> hi _bernie
  • gregdek hullos.
<walter> hi. Marco won't be joining us, but I think David is going to be here.
<walter> Any word from Chris?
<_bernie> cjb: ping
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  • erikos (n=erikos@88-134-127-109-dynip.superkabel.de) has joined #sugar-meeting
<dfarning_> Good morning all
<walter> I think we have a quorum. Let's get started, as I have a hard 15UTC deadline today.
<walter> I posted a few items on the wiki...
<walter> I think everyone saw the email from Karen re SFC?
<walter> We still are not listed on their site, but we are officially official now.
<tomeu> yup, was nice to read
<dfarning_> Yes! that is good news
<gregdek> Sorry for the delay getting us there. :/
<walter> I set up a stub for donation on the wiki... We have a few other odds and ends to take care of...
<walter> @gregdek: NP
<walter> Bernie, how do we set up new aliases on sugarlabs?
<walter> We need to set up an alias for our correspondence with the SFC.
<dfarning_> walter, you have admin rights for setting up email at start.sugarlabs.org
<erikos> walter: for people like me - it would be good to send a reminder to the list - i would have forgotten :)
<walter> @erikos: did you subscribe to the calendar...
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<_bernie> walter: go to mail.sugarlabs.org, you should have an account
<erikos> walter: oh i don't use gmail :/
<walter> there is an ical version too
<walter> shall the sfc email go to slobs?
<_bernie> erikos: I think you don't need gmail... it's a caldav thing that works with any calendar app
<erikos> walter: ok i guess i will just add it to my old-school calendar then - don't worry
<dfarning_> That sounds reasonable
<tomeu> yeah, sending to slobs sounds good
<erikos> _bernie: i don't use any digital one :)
<erikos> tomeu: me not on slobs
<walter> david, have you heard back from karen re your list?
<dfarning_> walter no not yet.
<tomeu> erikos: no, we are talking about an address to where SFC will send email when need anything from sugarlabs
<erikos> tomeu: oh sorry :p
<_bernie> erikos: (me neither)
<walter> I think there is no harm in everyone on the oversight board getting that email.
<tomeu> as long as it's not totally public, I think we are good
<walter> David: maybe we should plan to call Karen next week?
<walter> Let me know what works for you.
<dfarning_> That sounds good. Any time you set up should be good for me
<walter> Bernie, Seth and I were discussing membership.
<walter> I think the threshold for membership should be to ask a question...
<walter> even "how do I become a member?"
<walter> I don't think this would be an issue.
<_bernie> walter: I agree to a low barrier membership policy
<tomeu> me too
<dfarning_> At this point I was waiting for feedback from SFC about the ICA before raising the issue
<_bernie> some FOSS projects require the applicants to go on "trial" and show their past contribution as evidence
<walter> Yeah. But we should go into the conversation with the SFC with a position we are targeting.
<_bernie> to become a fedora sponsor, I had to say what packages and reviews I made
<dfarning_> Ok
<walter> There was an interesting PHD thesis I read about the other types of contributions, e.g., documentation, testing, support, that are vital parts of the community in FLOSS
<dfarning_> I restart working on guidelines this week
<walter> OK.
<dfarning_> Yes the non-traditional nature of Sugar Labs will be interesting
<walter> Anything else re SFC? I am waiting to hear back re Google Checkout and Paypal.
<dfarning_> just the pending trademark discussion
<walter> Yeah. Now that we have a logo.
<dfarning_> also we need to start looking into partner organization and local support organizations
<dfarning_> a discussion with SFC on these issues would be helpful
<walter> Yes. Colombia is not the only instance.
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<walter> Peru is interested. Pakistan is interested.
<dfarning_> very nice
<tomeu> in establishing local partners of sugarlabs?
<walter> yes.
<_bernie> seth seems to be willing to fill the gap for the learning^2 foundation
<dfarning_> we are interested in formally partnering with organization like solutions grove and resara
<_bernie> he wants to develop content
<walter> I am working on this with USMP in Peru and with a team in Pakistan
<tomeu> walter: sounds good, those local organizations would also take care of local deployments?
<walter> @dfarning_: yes... a different sort of partnership.
<walter> @tomeu: exactly the point
<tomeu> walter: have you already prospected linux user groups, etc?
<walter> and developing new features driven by local needs.
<walter> I met with the Ubuntu group in Lima. There will be lots of Ubuntu folks in Boston in the coming weeks... we should plan to connect with them during SugarCamp
<walter> I don't know the Pakistan community very well yet.
<walter> But Rafael is driving the Colombia effort...
<dfarning_> Structurally, the local support will be likely be organized as 'Sugar Labs - Region'
<erikos> walter: which SugarCamp - in Paris ?
<walter> erikos: SugarCamp in Boston__what was to have been XOCamp.
<dfarning_> this will allow them to leverage the Sugar Labs name and avoid the headaches of setting up their own foundations
<walter> Yes
<tomeu> erikos: scott proposed this: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugarcamp_proposal
<erikos> walter: ok so you guys will meet with tomeu and marco basically
  • _bernie thinks that rafael rocks
<tomeu> erikos: well, sugarcamp is a set of technical talks
<walter> I think people like Michael and Scott and others will be there too.
<tomeu> yeah, dirakx++
<erikos> tomeu: ok i see now
<tomeu> I personally think we'll have enough non-technical stuff to do at boston, but well...
<walter> I will be in Europe from the 12th to the 19th, so I'll only partial overlap.
<walter> And I will probably be back in Europe again around the 1st of December.
<erikos> walter: right i remembered that - we should coordinate maybe i can join at some place
<walter> I have interest from Telecom Italia, BT, and a new Nokia lead all to follow up on as well.
<walter> @erikos: I'll be in Dusseldorf, Balzano, and Tampere.
<tomeu> walter: oh, so you are going to paris on the 15th?
<walter> I cannot get to Paris on the 15th. I will try to get there on the 1st
<tomeu> I see
<walter> Maybe Simon can go?
<tomeu> was interesting to hear about mandriva in the codecamp
<erikos> i will check a bit dates and see what makes sense
<walter> There has been great movement in all the distros... Fedora leading the way for Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, etc.
<_bernie> tomeu, erikos: someone should make proposals of simple tasks for the upcoming codecamp in Paris
<dfarning_> There is also a netbook conference in paris that mandriva has invited us to
<_bernie> tomeu, erikos: anything that a team of novices could complete in one day
<walter> Yes. That is on the 1st, I believe.
<_bernie> janitorial tasks are ok if not too boring
<erikos> _bernie: yup - on my list of tasks
<walter> Maybe we should segway to events?
<tomeu> yeah, the sugar fedora spin rocks
<_bernie> Bastien expects to have 5 developers willing and capable to contribute to sugar.
<tomeu> segway?
<tomeu> _bernie: a pity 0.83 is unstable, we added some new hooks to sugar that makes easier to write extensions
<dfarning_> tomeu, smart person talk for 'goto'
<tomeu> aha ;)
<walter> I though it was a two-wheel electronic scooter...
<walter> http://www.segway.com/
<tomeu> would be very good to establish some presence between paris and belgium, there's a lot of FOSS movement there
<tomeu> yeah, the prague center is full of tourists killing pidgeons on that
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  • _bernie doesn't have the latest adobe flash player
  • _bernie is a fundamentalist
<_bernie> tomeu: one important point when we approach new FOSS groups is to have a TODO list of tasks we'd like to get done
<tomeu> what's about trac?
<erikos> _bernie: me the same :)
<_bernie> tomeu: and a simple procedure to get started
<walter> Anything we need to discuss re SugarCamp? Does everyone have a place to stay who is coming?
<tomeu> _bernie: agreed, we have done some, but didn't had much luck
<_bernie> tomeu: mentoring is very important I think
<tomeu> _bernie: but we should keep trying
<erikos> tomeu: jumped over ?
<_bernie> tomeu: yeah even if only 1 out of 10 becomes a regular contributor, it might be worth the effort.
<walter> Bernie and I pledged to deal with the outstanding infrastructure issues by the end of next week.
<dfarning_> I do not yet have a place to stay
<tomeu> walter: marco and me are still undecided where to stay, would be good if a local said which of the available options makes more sense
<erikos> about trac - i heard from marco that there are efforts for the trac and git hosting - what is the status here?
<tomeu> _bernie: totally, 1 of 10 would be very good
<dfarning_> OSL has our vm up and running
<walter> @dfarning: You can stay at my place for the later have of the week...
<dfarning_> git should come online today or monday
<erikos> dfarning_: yeah!!!
<tomeu> nice ;)
<erikos> dfarning_: thanks so much for these efforts - this will be a huge step!
<_bernie> dfarning_: cool! I've been falling behind on my email yesterday but I've seen there was some activity
<walter> @tomeu: my house is a bit of a hike: about an hour by public transportation... 45 minutes by bicycle...
<walter> Did you guys see the GCompris email today from Bruno?
<dfarning_> trac a few day later - there are some version issues between cenos5.2 and recent trac packages
<walter> We need to host activities...
<tomeu> walter: yeah, what can SL do about it? do we have enough bw?
<_bernie> as for our second server, olpc might have hardware to offer, according to hhardy.
<walter> We have the same b'width as OLPC--we are on the MIT network.
<_bernie> dfarning_: do you think we can reach the SFC admins on irc or jabber?
<tomeu> walter: so would be easier to host the gcompris activities?
<_bernie> communication between me and them has been a bit sloppy
<_bernie> dfarning_: they keep replying only to you! ;-)
<dfarning_> walter: what would be involved in hosting activities
<walter> I don't see why we don't offer to host activities, once we have the server set up.
<dfarning_> _bernie: you are now on the osl RT
<walter> It is really just the git tree and a web page...
<_bernie> walter: no, what gcompris email?
<tomeu> ok, so if 3TB is not too much, let's do it
<tomeu> _bernie: bruno had to pull down the activities because too many kids were downloading them
<walter> Bruno turned off downloads from Gcompris because he couldn't handle the load. He had requested OLPC hosting and never heard back.
<_bernie> we need to host them
<tomeu> yup
<erikos> i think hosting activities would be very important
<walter> +1.
<_bernie> erikos: me too
<tomeu> so if we all agree, can someone create an user for bruno and make some place for him to upload the activities?
<dfarning_> Could we host them from downloads.sugarlabs.org I think that is on the sun machine ivan has access to
<_bernie> being an activity author is a natural first step to becoming a sugar contributor
<_bernie> dfarning_: yes
<tomeu> and activities are what users really care about
<_bernie> dfarning_: only problem is that we don't have much space
<walter> I suppose we can host the downloads without hosting the source (until we get git)
<_bernie> but it's ok for activities
<dfarning_> ok good, I promised OSL we would self host our resource hogs for now
<dfarning_> walter: git is coming very soon
<dfarning_> _bernie: do we need more hard drives for the sun machine?
<_bernie> dfarning_: not unless we want to host big downloads (such as isos)
<walter> I think we want to the distros to host the ISOs.
<_bernie> ivan proposed to buy a usb disk enclosure and hook it to solarsail. crude, but cheap.
<walter> @bernie: we have to go shopping next week...
<_bernie> gregdek: do you think we could get an account on people.redhat.com or similar to host large downloads?
<dfarning_> who would like to like handle the move to our own get server?
<_bernie> walter: lol
<dfarning_> s/get/git/
<_bernie> dfarning_: me... should be rather easy
<gregdek> people.rh.c is already complaining about hosting the Fedora Sugar ISO. :/
<_bernie> dfarning_: but for now, let's just _add_ not move
<walter> yes.
<tomeu> dfarning_: think as _bernie
<tomeu> dfarning_: we have some new stuff to host there
<tomeu> moving will be very easy technically, as it's git
<dfarning_> tomeu: I will try to become one with bernie:)
<_bernie> and even when we move a project, git makes it easy to maintain two independent trees synchronized
<tomeu> dfarning_: sorry, I meant I thought the same as _bernie ;)
<_bernie> "easy" is a relative term of course
<_bernie> nothing is easy in git ;-)
<tomeu> _bernie: I think it's the only thing that git makes easy ;)
<walter> I need to take off soon...
<walter> Can I give a quick update re fundrasing?
<dfarning_> yes!
<_bernie> "git, designed to make forking easy -- and nothing else"
<walter> We still have no money :)
<erikos> if our own git is up - i write a new activity only to have something new to host :)
<tomeu> no money, no problems
<_bernie> I will move xaos
<tomeu> erikos: write an activity day ;)
<walter> But we have a modest travel budget from Pininfarina beginning next year.
<_bernie> we are poor but honest
<walter> And I have submitted three more grant proposal yesterday (to the Knight Foundation)
<tomeu> walter: nice, in what else are we partnering with pininfarina?
<erikos> walter: what company/org is this ?
<walter> and one more going in today.
<_bernie> walter: wow
<_bernie> walter: do we get ferraris?
<_bernie> walter: Make sure I get a Testarossa
<erikos> _bernie: yeah saw the page and was wondering as well ;p
<walter> Pininfarina designs jets too. And speed boats, so our travel woes are over!!
<dfarning_> I have also advocated the position that it is hard to make spending mistakes when one has no money
<walter> but they also design toothbrushes...
<walter> And maybe Sugar-enabled devices...
<_bernie> "meanwhile, the SLOBs are riding on their invisible jet to a their secret headquarters..."
<walter> We just use our "transporter". Beam me up, Bernie.
<_bernie> "oops, I had the wrong version of libcompress.so... you're screwed"
<tomeu> ok, we are going to be rich and famous soon, what else?
<walter> Anyway, I'll be talking to several more funding agencies in the coming weeks. And I am starting to push on industry--for in kind support, i.e., engineers. Some interest from BT just yesterday.
<tomeu> oh, nice
<walter> I didn't write up much of a trip report yet from Peru--but lots of great stuff happening there.
<walter> I'll try to get something written up this weekend: I have some data on how children are learning with Sugar
<walter> dramatic numbers!
<_bernie> nice
<dfarning_> walter: in kind support will be very helpful - dependable engineering support - without us allowing ourselves to close ranks
<erikos> walter: looking forward to that
<gregdek> In kind as important or more important than cash, in many cases.
<gregdek> imho.
<walter> Yeah. Bernie and I go to Resara on Monday...
<_bernie> When we have a moment, I'd like to introduce jkridner and aleph. They have been lurking on the channel for a while.
<walter> @gregdek: the RH example being one :)
<tomeu> wonder if we could get some of the .uy teachers in translating, aggreggating lesson plans, etc
<walter> Where would we be without RH?
<tomeu> sure, for manning, in kind is best
<gregdek> :)
<_bernie> Jason Kridner is the FOSS lead at Texsas Instruments. They hosted our talk at ESC Boston
<erikos> _bernie: did you make new friends in the embedded world ? ;p
<walter> The Peru team is doing great material too.
<walter> And there is a translation project at IBM I am tapping into.
<walter> Engish/Arabic only to start...
<_bernie> Stefano "aleph" Fedrigo has been helping out with the Sugar -> BB port, and before that he helped me with my X11 work at 1cc
<tomeu> walter: any progress in getting more teachers from peru in olpc-sur?
<walter> Well. I need to go. Can someone transcribe the notes after this point in the wiki?
<walter> @tomeu: yes. More Peru engagement for one...
<tomeu> hi jkridner|work, aleph_6510
<walter> Sugar_Labs/OversightBoard/Minutes/Log-2008-10-31
<erikos> welcome jkridner|work, aleph_6510
<tomeu> walter: I can take care of that, will be around for at least one more half an hour
<_bernie> Walter and Jason had incompatible schedules this week so they couldn't meet in person
<walter> @tomeu: I'll take care of the formating later...
<tomeu> TI/BB may be interesting for deployers of Sugar interested in crafting their own devices
<walter> ciao
<tomeu> fine, see you
<_bernie> (jason was on a phone call a few minutes ago... might still be busy)
<_bernie> uh, are we finished already?
<_bernie> ;-)
<tomeu> well, I wanted to hear about the BugSquad
<dfarning_> tomeu: yes the TI relationship is premised on embedded developers and designers building embedded devices running sugar
<tomeu> as it's in the agenda...
<_bernie> I have time
<_bernie> dfarning_: that's my expectation too.
<tomeu> the XO hardware is very sweet, but there must be ways of improving it ;)
<_bernie> dfarning_: the chip maker reference designs often turn into dozens of products from different companies in the same industry.
<erikos> tomeu: i have not kept up with the bugsquad lately
<aleph_6510> hello all! Nice to meet you :-)
<_bernie> and clearly soon or later we'll see a generation of non-x86 ultraportables
<erikos> tomeu: maybe with the new development release we have something to test and i can coordinate and update a bit
<tomeu> erikos: maybe later in the cycle, and once we have trac
<dfarning_> hey aleph_6510 thanks for helping _bernie on the beagle board
<_bernie> aleph_6510: thanks for all your help
<tomeu> erikos: wonder if there are people interested in packaging 0.83.1 in distros
<tomeu> _bernie, aleph_6510: how well does sugar run on it?
<_bernie> tomeu: we already have that in fedora right? I'm just a fedora developer...
<tomeu> _bernie: no 0.83 packages yet in fedora, but we could do
<_bernie> perhaps I should find the time and use this opportunity to learn packaging for debian/ubuntu
<tomeu> _bernie: would be nice to update sugar on joyride
<tomeu> _bernie: the problem is that this requires NM 0.7
<erikos> tomeu: yeah was just thinking about the packing issue as well
<tomeu> _bernie: and joyride is now F9+NM 0.6
<_bernie> tomeu: ok I'll talk with cscott about it
<erikos> tomeu: NM is ready soon
<_bernie> tomeu: I'm sure we can coordinate this
<tomeu> _bernie: nice, I can help with sugar rpms
<_bernie> F9 normally would come with NM 0.7... we downgraded it because sugar was not yet ready
<tomeu> oh, ok
<dfarning_> _bernie: Jonas is keeping up with the debian packages he is smart but quirky
<tomeu> _bernie: I actually tried to install NM 0.7 in joyride, but didn't managed to get it to work
<dfarning_> The SugarTeam at ubuntu has recently gotten up to spead
<aleph_6510> dfarning_: I think Sugar is a wonderful project... I look forward contribute someway
<_bernie> aleph_6510: when you have time, we have bugs
<dfarning_> aleph_6510: we also look forward to your help:)
<_bernie> or missing features
<aleph_6510> Nice, I'm good at debugging ;-)
<tomeu> aleph_6510: what are your interests? we can think something fun and useful
<jkridner|work> hi tomeu, erikos
<jkridner|work> nice to meet you all.
* jkridner|work was on a phone call earlier.
<dfarning_> jkridner|work: how did you feel that the sugar on beagleboard talk went?
<jkridner|work> I think it was quite interesting, but needed more activities loaded on the card to get people familiar with Sugar.
<jkridner|work> It was certainly able to reach a few people in the audience who had a lot of interest and cornered Bernie after the talk.
<aleph_6510> tomeu: low level and system stuff. I'm very proficient with C/C++, but a beginner in python. Anyway I could take the chance to learn something of it
<jkridner|work> others were confused how education and embedded systems overlapped.
<dfarning_> I have jumped on a education thread on the beagleboard to try gathering support
<jkridner|work> most people were very interested in playing with the interface, but were stymied by not having activities installed and no net/serial connection as the lab was setup.
<tomeu> jkridner|work: was mentioned the possibility of doing custom UIs similar to Sugar for non-educational stuff?
<jkridner|work> that is a very interesting area to me.
<jkridner|work> of course, non-educational stuff is still educational stuff too. :)
<tomeu> aleph_6510: from the links in Goals, you can see what we are up to in this release: http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/Release/Roadmap/0.84#Goals
<tomeu> everything is educational! :p
<erikos> jkridner|work: yeah - people should not separate these things too much
<jkridner|work> things like block diagram building are very interesting for embedded systems...
<dfarning_> There is a team at the uw madison that is working on using sugar as the interface for medical devices
<jkridner|work> and makes a nice UI for connecting digital signal processing blocks.
<jkridner|work> embedded devices should be more programmable and I think sugar can help with that.
<jkridner|work> some people made the connection, so I see that as a success.
<jkridner|work> most didn't, so I see that as room for improvement.
<tomeu> dfarning_: wow
<erikos> yeah the seed is spread - now we wait to let it grow
<erikos> dfarning_: what would they want to use it for exactly - is there a page or something?
<tomeu> when universities in peru, uruguay, etc start to get involved in sugar development because their kids are using it, sugar may catch interest in the robotics department, etc
<dfarning_> tomeu: It is still in the proposal phase but the have the guy who invented the algorithm for the EKG machine in their corner
<aleph_6510> tomeu: there is a lot of interesting stuff to work on
<erikos> dfarning_: sounds promising
<tomeu> aleph_6510: we are few people, even if there's a name attached to it, you can probably take it up
<tomeu> aleph_6510: do you have an XO?
<jkridner|work> eToys is my favorite Sugar application and seems perfect for robotics and many signal processing apps.
* jkridner|work has an XO, but broke it somehow and now needs to learn to fix it.
<aleph_6510> tomeu: yes, I do, a B4
<tomeu> aleph_6510: if so, you could work in performance and memory usage, for example
<erikos> aleph_6510: for direct coordination - you can jump into #sugar, use the ml - or we have as well a weekly developers meeting http://sugarlabs.org/go/DevelopmentTeam/Meetings
<tomeu> jkridner|work: a kid could do fix it for you ;)
<tomeu> jkridner|work: yeah, watched some video about how graphical objects where hooked up to some source event from hw
<tomeu> quite cool
<jkridner|work> tomeu: don't have any of those handy. :)
<tomeu> jkridner|work: bertf is our etoys hacker, he uses to be in #sugar
<dfarning_> jkridner|work: I still have the personal goal of seeing sugar on TI server as a controller for lego mindstorms
<jkridner|work> dfarning_: that is a shared goal then. :)
<jkridner|work> dfarning_: have you looked much at the NI tools/UI?
<dfarning_> jkridner|work: any chance that you will be in the boston some time from Nov 15-23? we are having a physical meeting
<jkridner|work> almost no chance. my office is cutting back on travel thanks to the current US economic state.
<aleph_6510> tomeu: I could look into it... are there performance problems that are not strictly python dependent?
<aleph_6510> tomeu: I have a beagleboard too... very useful to check for memory usage :-)
<tomeu> aleph_6510: how much it has? 128?
<aleph_6510> tomeu: yes, 128
<tomeu> aleph_6510: we suspect graphics performance is not as nice as it could be
<dfarning_> jkridner|work: as to Ni tools/UI, no I am mostly working on foundation administartive stuff so the developer can focus on developing
<tomeu> aleph_6510: you can see for example when scrolling in Browse
<tomeu> dfarning_: and that's very reassuring!
<aleph_6510> tomeu: I somewhat looked into Xorg graphics performance on XO months ago, with Bernie
<jkridner|work> well, I think that Lego is doing quite a bit with NI (http://www.ni.com/academic/mindstorms/story.htm).
<aleph_6510> tomeu: but I'm not up to date with latest developments
<tomeu> aleph_6510: _bernie talked about last X.org updates being even slower than the older ones
<tomeu> might be worth looking at that
<dfarning_> jkridner|work: thanks for that
<_bernie> tomeu: when is the sugarlabs meeting in boston?
<_bernie> do we have exact dates?
<aleph_6510> tomeu: so we haven't a specific culprit for bad graphics performance yet?
<dfarning_> but I still have an emotional attachment to TI based on the speak and spell:)
<jkridner|work> Lego seems to be very interested in graphical programming, but I'm sure there are problems that NI solves for Lego that Sugar Labs might struggle with being a non-profit based on open source software.
<tomeu> _bernie: not yet, but we should start planning
<_bernie> aleph_6510: nobody measured
<_bernie> we really should
<_bernie> with oprofile possibly
<tomeu> aleph_6510: not that I know of
<_bernie> possibly comparing the previous build with the current one
<tomeu> aleph_6510: probably some interaction between the driver and something up in the stack like cairo?
<aleph_6510> _bernie: yes! I'm starting to remember :-) I was commited to fix oprofile to have callbacks reports
<dfarning_> Well, thanks for everythink. I've got to go poke at OSL about git and trac.