Oversight Board/Meeting Minutes-2021-03-31

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SLOB Meeting -- March 31, 2021

Attending: Walter, Lionel, Perrie, MrBios, Ibiam, Jui, Callaurrea

From the community: srevinsaju



No transactions as of yet in 2021


We had a long discussion about how to handle abusive behavior.

Motion: Due to behavior in violation of the Sugar Labs code of conduct, Martin Guy's membership in the Sugar Labs community is hereby revoked. Motion by Walter; Seconded by MrBios

Passed unanimously.


No new correspondence


Lionel reported that we have 11 mentors and 1 draft proposal so far. More proposals are circulating by email.


Samson submitted a proposal regarding curriculum development.


Walter sponsored a virtual booth on behalf of Sugar Labs.

Ibiam's contract renewal

MrBios agreed to be the supervisor. He an Ibiam will come up with a set of milestones and deliverables.

Next Meeting

14 April 2021

Meeting Log

walterbender: SLOB meeting in just a few minutes... llaske_: Hi walterbender , I'm here. walterbender: hi lionel Alex Perez: hi folks walterbender: llaske_: we have our first proposal :) llaske_: Hi Alex walterbender: hi MrBIOS llaske_: walterbender: draft proposal for now :-) walterbender: just waiting for a quorum MrBIOS: While we do that, I'd like to address the issue Ibiam brought up, about Martin Guy Jui Pradhan: Hi walterbender: We have a quorum... @startmeeting llaske_: MrBIOS__: could you give the context? MrBIOS: Ibiam wrote, "one thing I'd like us to discuss in addition to other topics is the recent issue with Martin Guy and how our CoC should've come into play and how nothing was done from our end besides obeying Martin's request of removing himself as a member and the fact that something similar can happen again." walterbender: Is ibiam here? MrBIOS: In this particular instance, I think it's safe to conclude that this person had some life problems that went beyond what we could have reasonably expected would be an issue. walterbender: I am curious what more Ibiam thought we could do? callaurrea: Hi everyone! llaske_: Hi Claudia MrBIOS: I don't believe we could have predicted it, but we should still do a better job of preventing newbies from having shell accounts on our hardware. perrieee: Hello everyone! walterbender: Hi callaurrea: llaske_: Hi Perrie MrBIOS: walterbender:I believe specifically his concern was access to infrastructure walterbender: I think that he had been contributing and was hence vetted by James MrBIOS: yes, on the surface he presented as perfectly reasonable. llaske_: Is it complex to remove him from member? walterbender: I was thinking "background checks" but googling him only got me a race car driver. Is there something we can learn from how other projects handle this? Jui Pradhan: I'm not sure to what extend we can have background checks extent* walterbender: maybe we need to just move more slowly when it comes to granting root access on our servers. MrBIOS: walterbender: I don't believe he actually had root access. callaurrea: is the meeting just starting..or a while back? MrBIOS: I had some 1:1 interactions with Martin Guy via e-mail and thought things were okay, but he was very hostile with Quozl via e-mail, and subsequently rather abusive with me via e-mail. I don't think background checks are reasonable way forward, though it would probably be a good idea to to prevent membership of people with walterbender: He was very aggressive with me on email about the finances MrBIOS: ...of people with demonstrable hostility towards other contributors. Jui Pradhan: Hi callaurrea just starting... we are looking at what ibiam wrote as a reply to the reminder mail Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Hi Everyone. callaurrea: ok Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Sorry I'm late. walterbender: I was completely transparent with him and then he went silent. MrBIOS: yeah, he basically insinuated we were stealing money. With no evidence. llaske_: Hi Ibiam walterbender: @Chihurumnaya Ibiam: can you see the backlog? it is re your topic Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed but I also feel there should be a penalty for such because at the moment there seems to be none. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah. MrBIOS: Well, he chose to see himself out, not much penalty we can incur beyond ostracizing someone like that. walterbender: @Chihurumnaya Ibiam: how could we impose any kind of penalty? I think we need to err on the side of being open but react swiftly to abuses of the privileges we give people... which I think we did in this case. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: I agree, background checks aren't the way forward but moving forward what should be done when such happens because he requested he be removed from the membership but there's nothing done by us and what if he decides to come back to the community and be part of it and just apologizes, would that cut it? walterbender: I am hoping the surprises he left behind are anomolies Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed but there's a possibility of such happening again and in that regard what do we do? llaske_: Is it possible to do a motion to ban a member? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: He did something I definitely wasn't expecting him to do although he said he'd do it. walterbender: We don't have any policy re rejoining the community. I think people can learn... but we'd need to move slowly in the case of someone who was abusive llaske_: Hi Ibiam Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Hi llaske_/ walterbender: Without going into specifics, we have had community members do immature things in the past, but they outgrew their mistakes. I don't think this was the case with Martin. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah and in this case just like MrBIOS pointed out, he was abusive to Quozl albeit in personal emails. Jui Pradhan: Well this seems like a reasonable thing to do in this case MrBIOS: Agreed, but it wasn't actually necessary because he chose to depart of his own free will. He was just a jerk about it. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: No it wasn't the case. callaurrea: yes!! walterbender: I don't know that banning someone who left is productive. But perhaps we can reiterate our commitment to our Code of Conduct? One thing I expect from all of our community members is that they are open to learning and growing. Not sure we say that in our CoC Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah a ban on someone who chooses to leave on his own isn't necessary but in the case where the person comes back or such happens again, what do we do? MrBIOS: Well, they can "come back" and we can't really stop them, but we certainly wouldn't grant this person access to our infrastructure again, ever. There is no comprehensive mechanism for "banning" someone from our mailing list. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed and I also feel that our CoC might contain possible cases and possible enforcement guidelines for these cases. MrBIOS: In this case, he burned bridges on the way out, so the likelihood of him coming back is low. Jui Pradhan: Can we pass a motion agreeing to a certain number of months for a contributor to be added as a member? Chihurumnaya Ibiam The contributor covenant does this well. https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_conduct/code_of_conduct.txt MrBIOS: I'm not sure that would have made a difference in this instance. It's something that's worth debating before we pass a motion on it. walterbender: MrBIOS: agreed... it would require a lot of evidence to suggest we grant him access to infrastructure. But I don't think we have a way to actually ban people... I was trolled for many years on the lists. Had to grow a thick skin. walterbender: Jui Pradhan: do you have a specific proposal? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: walterbender: And no one else has to grow thick skin just by being part of the community. Jui Pradhan: Sure... Open to debate ofcourse. I mean deciding on 'x' months of interactions with a contributor can help us understand them better. I guess that might work as a background check of sorts walterbender: Chihurumnaya Ibiam: mailman has a "ban manager"... Jui Pradhan: I am not sure what you mean by "member" in this case. Jui Pradhan: I meant before we give them any exclusive rights which generally newer contributors dont have walterbender: We have "official" members who vote in our elections. there is a process for getting membership defined by sustained contribtutions. I don't think Martin was a member yet. Jui Pradhan: Yes I am aware walterbender: The access to sunjammer was in response to the specific area in which he was working/contributing. MrBIOS: I think it would make more sense to simply try to find a technical solution to prevent what happened this time, instead of imagining hypothetical future instances. walterbender: I think we have to use judgment, but when someone demonstrated technical skills and an interest in helping, it is had to say no. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Can't see any ban from the Sugar-devel list. walterbender: MrBIOS: I am what those steps would be Chihurumnaya Ibiam: He was, he'd applied for membership and was accepted. walterbender: Chihurumnaya Ibiam: not sure we have the "ban" mechanism enabled. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: we definitely should revoke his membership Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah, sad that it turned out the way it did. MrBIOS: nevermind walterbender: that is a clear and tangible response Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed. MrBIOS: But yes, I think we can revoke his membership but I don't see any value of informing him of that, since it would likely simply provoke additional abuse. walterbender: It is the community to whom we want to send the message, not Martin Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Found it, would add his address. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: walterbender: Already did that and updated the membership list on the wiki. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: MrBIOS: Yeah I agree, no need to inform him. walterbender: Motion: Due to behavior in violation of the Sugar Labs code of conduct, Martin Guy's membership in the Sugar Labs community is hereby revoked. MrBIOS: seconded. llaske_: +1 Jui Pradhan: +1 walterbender: If the motion passes, I will send a message to the community. +1 perrieee: +1 MrBIOS: Now that that's out of the way, what else? :) callaurrea: +1 walterbender: lots of other business... Nothing new re finances. callaurrea anything from the SFS? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: +1 I've also banned him from the Sugar-devel mailing list. callaurrea: No communications! walterbender: thanks Chihurumnaya Ibiam Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Review of my contract as we weren't able to talk about it in the last meeting and next steps moving forward. walterbender: llaske_: and Jui Pradhan anything to report re GSoC? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: yes... on my list :P llaske_: walterbender: we have 11 mentors/admin, there is some interest on the mailing list and here. And we have a draft proposal walterbender: several other draft proposals have been circulating by email... anything we should be doing to encourage more proposals? llaske_: I've send a message on social networks for Sugarizer side walterbender: I'll do the same for Music Blocks. @anindya has been spreading the word at his university... llaske_: There is few candidate that failed last year, still interested to participate this year perrieee: I will make a couple of tweets about it as well Jui Pradhan: Last year the convention was to send the proposals to mailing list so other community members can review and comment.... Do we have that this time? Also I think mailing mentors is a better way to do it and then sending final proposals (after submission deadline) to the mailing list..... thoughts? walterbender: The proposals are easy to review in the Google system too... llaske_: Yes I think it's better to use Google system for review Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Great idea. walterbender: perrieee: are you enlisted as a mentor? there is a design side to several of the Music Blocks coding projects where you skills could be most helpful. llaske_: walterbender: admin could be mentor as well perrieee: Yes, I added myself as a mentor for most of the projects that needs design inputs walterbender: perfect. anything else re GSoC? callaurrea: is there a learning project? It would be the best use of my mentorship yimr llaske_: That's all on my side callaurrea: *time walterbender: just a couple of other quick items before Chihurumnaya Ibiam 's topic. MrBIOS: I think the real value of asking GSoC participants to send their proposals to the mailing list is to encourage them to engage with the community that way walterbender: (1) Samson Goddy submitted an application to Season of Documentation MrBIOS: and, frankly, if they can't follow a basic direction such as that, I'm not sure they're going to be succcessful "working" for us walterbender: the focus was on curriculum. MrBIOS: you'd be surpised at how few can follow directions at this stage. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah and since everyone isn't a mentor, anyone can see what the student's proposal is even though the timeline is bound to change. walterbender: (2) I did end up sponsoring a virtual "stand" on behalf of Sugar Labs at LibrePlanet. MrBIOS: No I wouldn't ;-) walterbender: It was fun. Not a ton of traffic, but some. And I think it reflects well on us with the rest of the FOSS community. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed and for Sugar in particular, I sometimes wonder if our docs aren't all that helpful to them so it makes things easier for them. One thing I've been doing lately though is to email anyone who unsubscribes from the mailing list to find out if there were any particular reason why they did. walterbender: Touched base with some of the people at Fedora re the Sugar build. MrBIOS: Visibility is always a good thing. Thanks for making the effort. walterbender: I have a few screenshots I should share at some point... Jui Pradhan: Ohh that would be amazing! would love to look at those :) Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Thank you. walterbender: that is it from me... Chihurumnaya Ibiam can you please summarize what you propose to do in a renewal of your contract? and how we'd oversee the work? wasn't it James who was supervising the original contract? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Tested the F34 Beta earlier today, made some fixes for some packages and would most likely open issues for some others. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: I propose to include me working on SOAS and Sugar, I keep a journal of what I do daily but I think there's a software I can use that I should be able to grant anyone access so they can see notes. James was supervising yes but at the moment he isn't really available but I can share notes and links to open PRs so everyone can review. I shared it in the email I sent a while ago. callaurrea: can we help with testing some of the work? and determining priorities? we can also have you talk about it.. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Yeah, that'll be most helpful. I requested some people to test the draft PRs I opened but they haven't had the time to. walterbender: I think the biggest issue is to ensure there is someone tasked with supervision. I don't have the bandwidth at the moment. MrBIOS would be an obvious choice given the nature of the work. MrBIOS would be an obvious choice given the nature of the work. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: I'll let you know when I need help testing. callaurrea: ok Chihurumnaya Ibiam: The renewal includes a rate change. MrBIOS: I can attempt to do so, but I'd prefer to keep it to e-mail due to the time differences involved. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Tjhat walterbender: I think that would work... walterbender: (these Left Coast people) Chihurumnaya Ibiam: That's fine by me. MrBIOS: Left coast is the Best Coast ;) walterbender: (California and Nigeria are both on the West Coast... so why is there a timezone issue?)maybe we should spin the earth north/south instead of east/west... that'd solve the problem. walterbender: Chihurumnaya Ibiam: what is the budget for this? (I guess need to be responsible for such things in Devin's absence.) walterbender: If the earth spun north/south, most of the world's population would be in 6-8 timezones... much more convenient. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: The current rate is at $16.5/hr, the new proposed rate is at $22/hr. walterbender: how many hours/month? Chihurumnaya Ibiam: walterbender: how many hours/month? The previous was 60 hours and I'm currently requesting for 120 hours. That would take a month. Sumit Srivastava: walterbender: maybe we should spin the earth north/south instead of east/west... that'd solve the problem. I'm in Which GitHub repo do I send the pull requests to? callaurrea: walterbender: any interest in fundraising for sugar? walterbender: callaurrea: As long as we have a tangible goal, then I am all in to help. Chihurumnaya Ibiam: so it is $3500... I'd like to find a way to have concrete milestones/deliverables. MrBIOS: agreed, as would I. walterbender: OI mean, $2600 typo in bc callaurrea: we should think about it... Chihurumnaya Ibiam: I'm guessing you added both the previous and the current proposal so yeah, the earlier agreement was to focus on the first 15 of the list and so far I've opened two PRs and also worked on one that wasn't part of the first 15. walterbender: Agreed. walterbender: We are running over time and I am going to have to leave soon. But perhaps Chihurumnaya Ibiam and MrBIOS can iterate via email on some deliverables and then we can make a motion? MrBIOS: yes, let's discuss it further via the SLOBs mailing list? walterbender: +1 Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Agreed. walterbender: And perhaps callaurrea you could lead a discussion next time re possible fund raising ideas? walterbender: motion to adjourn llaske_: Seconded Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Seconded. +1. callaurrea: +1 bye everyone take care walterbender: thanks everyone. interesting discussion. I will post the minutes to the wiki. llaske_: Bye Chihurumnaya Ibiam: Bye everyone. Sumit Srivastava: Bye everyone perrieee: bye Jui Pradhan: Byeee